ProductiviTree: Cultivating Efficiency, Harvesting Joy

ProductiviTree #7 The Low-Hanging Fruit is Rotten - Adam Malone on Fixing Workplace Jargon

• Santiago Tacoronte • Season 1 • Episode 7

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In this conversation, Adam discusses the pervasive issue of corporate jargon and its impact on communication and productivity in the workplace. He defines corporate jargon, explores its origins, and highlights the confusion it can create among employees. Adam categorizes common expressions and acronyms, emphasizing the need for clarity and inclusivity in communication. He also addresses the cultural implications of jargon, suggesting that it can foster a false sense of busyness and hinder genuine understanding. The conversation concludes with practical advice for detoxing from jargon and improving communication effectiveness. 


Takeaways 

  • Corporate jargon is often well-meaning but can create confusion. 
  • Expressions like 'think outside the box' can alienate non-native speakers. 
  • Overused terms like 'synergy' often lose their meaning. 
  • Acronyms can be efficient but may exclude others. 
  • Corporate hustle culture can lead to unnecessary complexity in communication. 
  • Asking for clarity can improve understanding in meetings. 
  • Insider speak can make individuals feel excluded and less confident. 
  • Consultants often introduce jargon to sound more knowledgeable. 
  • Reducing jargon can lead to more productive meetings. 
  • Effective communication should prioritize clarity over complexity. 

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Hi Adam and welcome to Productivity! Thank you, great to be here. What is corporate jargon? How do you define it? Well first I would just say I think it's well-meaning for the most part so I think it's language that's well-meaning But it can really easy easily create confusion or make some people feel like they are outsiders Sometimes it's acronyms, right? Sometimes it's words or phrases that are used in a kind of abnormal way I think like the great example of this is Thinking outside the box Right? There's a huge story around that. can go Google, like why did people say, start saying, think outside the box. But fundamentally, like the short story is there was a consulting group in like the seventies and they use this little diagram to like basically show people that they were smarter than them. And that's where we got this whole phrase of thinking outside the box. Your listeners should go like Google that and read it. Cause it's very interesting. But, but now we have this phrase that we say, well we need to think outside the box and like, We assume everyone knows what that means. The background is that fundamentally it was to make some people feel like outsiders because these consultants wanted to show off a little bit as consultants sometimes do. And now it's like taking on a life of its own. And people say, think outside the box all the time. They don't know like the history of it. They just say it without really knowing exactly what they mean. And then they just like have all this assumption about what it means for themselves or their teams. And it's just unhelpful and exclusive language that sometimes it doesn't even do what you want it to do. You know what's funny about this expression? I hear it so many times and when sometimes people take it literally and they think outside the box and then someone comes in like, no, no, we cannot do that. You need to think inside the box because you cannot go that far, you know? it's... Yeah, well, I think I think it's really interesting and we'll talk about some of these in a minute, but like. It's even more different like if you're used to working in a given region like I'm based in the southern United States. So like even within the United States, there will be phrases and words that don't have the same meaning across the country. But then I've worked with teams in Australia and Asia and Europe. You you work in in Europe and in a global team. And so sometimes there's even more confusion created because you have like non native English speakers who are saying, well, we need to think outside the box. And so people literally like go looking for a box. It's like, no, no, no, it's just a phrase and like, it just creates confusion. Whereas if you just said, Hey, can we, can we think creatively about this issue? They're like, I know what that means. Like I know what it means to think creatively as opposed to this phrase that actually can create a ton of confusion across language barriers. Right. What is your top five corporate expressions that impact productivity that you, as you just well said, people might not even understand or people is like, well, what does that even mean? Yeah, yeah. So I want to put them into categories because I think that there's differences. So one, there's just like overused. So to me, like synergy. People say synergy a lot. And I actually think that no one knows what synergy means. And now the dictionary definition is based on how it's used in the business world. It's not actually it's like a made up word, right? And then sometimes there's just weird language like peel back the onion. You know, there's all these layers to an issue, so we need to peel back the onion on that. It's kind of weird when you think about it to say in a business context, but maybe the ones that frustrate me more often are when people use a big word when a small word will do. So like my biggest offender here is utilized. People love to say utilized or we're going to utilize this technology. Like the word they want to say is use. It has the same first letter. It has similar sounds, but we think we sound smarter. And so we say, I'm going to utilize this tool when like you could just as easily and accurately say, I'm going to use it. But you sound really smart when you say utilize. So I think there's just some like different categories here. Some of it's overused, some of it's weird language, some of it's big words when small words will do. So that was three, synergy, peel back the onion, utilize. A couple others. Sometimes we bring in language from other aspects of like the world, so like Colin audible. I don't even know if if that like resonates for you because it's a it's a it's a term from American football, right? And it's it's to say like when you're on the scrimmage line and you want to change the play because the quarterback is, you know, trying to do something different. And so he literally like changes the call out loud and he calls an audible. Well, it's super regular for people like bring that into the business setting. we're going to call an audible on this. And again, only people who have a football background really know American football background really know what that means. And we're actually like we're not on a scrimmage line, but we're going to use it. So was fourth, call an audible. Let me see. What's another good one? yeah, here's one. A stakeholders. People love to say stakeholders. when they could just say like interested people, right? But they want to say stakeholders because it sounds a ton. So you already translated a couple of them. That's all right. That's totally all right. What would you say instead of peel back the onions, I sense naturally and people understand it. Let's just talk about the details. Or let's get into the details, or is there some more that we should understand here? Like ask a question instead of saying like, Santiago, will you peel back the onion? You're like, OK, I don't want to cry. Peeling onions makes people cry. Whereas you could just say, hey, could you go into a couple layers of detail here so we all understand a little better? yeah, I can totally do that. What about synergies? well, so synergy is actually a made up word like 40 years, 40 or 50 years ago. Like synergy didn't even exist as a word and it was created by consultants again for the purpose of sounding good and specifically sounding good when they laid off a bunch of people. But I think usually instead of synergy, you can just say efficiency. Like what you're saying is hey, we think if we combine teams or we combine efforts that will get some efficiency because we're not. overlapping in our responsibilities. You don't have to make it hard. It's efficiency, it's not synergy. What about the American football one called the audible call yeah, call an audible. I again you can just say what you're doing. Hey, I think we need to do something different. I know it's last minute to make a change. But again, like that's a good one like that one didn't really even resonate for you. Your American listeners will be super familiar with that, but your you know your European listeners they might be like I don't even know what calling an audible means. It's super applicable because in the US, you know, we'll have the Super Bowl in the next couple of weeks. And so that people are going to be talking about that all the time. True. You've spoken about the idea of signaling and how people use big words. Why do you think people do that? They want to imitate others. You hinted it. They want to sound big and, you know, fancy and smart. Yeah, so signaling just just so we're all on the same page signaling is this idea often within economics that is. Hey, I do something and that signals something about me so for an example there can be a debate. You know our people from Harvard successful because they went to Harvard or are people who go to Harvard just naturally successful so like going to Harvard is sometimes a signaling effect that someone is will be capable. but not everybody that goes to Harvard is capable, right? And so a signaling effect here I think is there are people who are really smart and do really well and they might use big words and phrases just because it's who they are, not because they're trying to like be something different than who they are themselves. But once people see that success, they're naturally going to imitate it. And so it can, this, this idea of big words and phrases can show up as a signaling effect because, whenever my VP or CFO talks about these sorts of things, they use these really big fancy phrases. And so I need to use these big fancy phrases as well. And it could be that that person who's been super successful, they are using them from a legitimate standpoint of like, this is the right word for the right time. And they're successful. And so then that language starts to trickle down and it actually can lose its effectiveness because now people are leveraging are using these terms that they may not completely understand. And they're just trying to signal that they are capable or hardworking or variety of things. I, I, that totally resonated with me, Adam, because I think corporate jargon is almost pandemic in a way that if you hear a leader or in a town hall saying something like, don't boil the ocean in a matter of hours, everybody's not boiling the ocean in every meeting across the, the organization. that, that was super, super spot on acronyms. yeah, yeah we gotta talk about those. a significant portion of corporate jargon. Do you think they're necessary? mean, like shortening words, you spoke about efficiency before. Shortening words somehow make sense. But I would dig into extreme. Do we need it? Is it complicated communication? I think it is. So I agree. Like I'm a big fan of efficiency. And so there are times when it makes sense to shorten words or create acronyms of a sort. Like in my business, we used to say KPI for key performance indicator a lot. And really we meant metric, which is kind of funny. Like we didn't actually even mean it the right way, but we said KPI. And so I think it's important to like accept acronyms at some level because there is some efficiency like when you're writing slides or you're talking about things, if you spell out every single thing like that's not a good answer either. But my response is always going to be something like do less, have fewer acronyms, do as little as possible in that simply so you can create a more inclusive environment because Acronyms are naturally insider language and the more we use them, the more likely that we're going to alienate someone. And so the smaller the group is or the more homogenous a group is, the better or more effective your acronyms are going to be. So when you're presenting with your team or your direct team or within your business unit, the acronyms are going to make more sense. But as soon as you go to a cross-functional group, your acronyms are going to start to fail and there's going to be people who don't understand what you're talking about. And so my lens is always use as few acronyms as possible and make certain that you actually kind of tell people what that acronym is as a part of the discussion. So break them down. If you are saying, for example, FBI, Federal Bureau of Investigation, you recommend to break them down. Yeah, do it once right like in your let's say in a slide presentation include them one time or like include a definition parentheses FBI and then after that you can say FBI but that's just a super easy way to make certain that everyone's on the same on the same page which by the way I just use some jargon right there being on the same page we all love to get on the same page. Well, you think that corporate jargon has created some sort of like fake hustle culture where people sounds busy. You don't even need to look busy. You already sound busy using these sort of terms of some things that come to my head and let's circle back. Right. It's already gives the impression that you're so busy that you cannot tackle this at the moment. Mm hmm. Yeah, I absolutely think that's a great way to talk about is like corporate hustle culture. I like their culture reference because so in my consulting work, I work with organizations a lot on the culture that they've developed and is it a trust based culture? And I think this is actually a great sign. That you don't have high levels of trust in your organization. because people feel the necessity to look really busy. Instead of saying, hey, I'm going to take a look at that and I'll get back to you. That's what you could say. But instead they say something like, we're going to do a deep dive analysis on the risks and opportunities related to the implementation of the project or whatever. Huge words, lots of them. But really all you mean is, we're going to look at that and see if there's anything going on. But you feel uncomfortable saying that because it doesn't sound like you're doing much work. And so to me, that's why I say it's an indication that your culture may have a trust or psychological safety sort of issue because people feel like they need to make their work sound really big. Because maybe people don't trust them. Are you really doing much work if all you're doing is checking for issues? And what about people, the concept of corporate cruising? Do you think that people use corporate jargon to divert, delay, and, and, know, I always use this term corporate pace and take things at a very, let's say, calm pace. Yeah, so in the email you sent me, I'd never actually heard the term corporate cruising, so that was really I like that term. I think it definitely can create an environment where we're not speaking directly and whenever we're not speaking directly, we slow things down either intentionally or unintentionally. And so instead of saying. We need to go look at the problems with that and get back to everyone. We then talk about all these things we're gonna do so we can circle back at a future date. And it just slows everything down because we don't all know exactly what circle back means or when it means or a couple different details like that. And we could just communicate a lot more clearly and say, hey, Santiago, we're gonna go to some work and I'll talk to you next Tuesday about this. But instead we use this whole big phrase of like, yeah, we're gonna do this and then we'll circle back in January and okay. Why? Yeah, there are many of these that I feel that sometimes are a bit of a diversion. One of them that comes to my head, we need to unpack this. Yeah, we need to double click into the mutes, right. Yeah, that was on my list too. I made a list before we got on double click is one and to me that's another great one. That's an example of. It actually doesn't make sense. If you like look back 20 years ago. Like double clicking no one double clicked like it wasn't an action that we did and so it wasn't in the vernacular in the language. But then if you think like my kids now. They don't even use a mouse. So like this idea of double clicking like it doesn't make sense to them either. So it's actually even it's a jargon sort of phrase that will use like double click or move the needle or whatever. But there's actually a very small window of people that it actually makes sense for. If you use technology where you double clicked it makes sense. But my parents don't say double click and my kids don't say double click right. It's like. you know elder millennials are saying double click and that's it Elder Millennials, I like that. Have you been ever in a meeting where there was so packed with jargon that you didn't even know what the meeting was about or what they were talking about? For sure. So my some quick background. was I worked at the same company for 17 years, so that's most of my career. And I spent 10 of that like on the corporate side. And there was a metric that we used that was it was the bedrock of all of the financials that the corporate teams talked about. It's it's an insurance term. It's called incident rate often gets shortened to IR. So I spent literally 10 years of my career with that being the number one thing I talked about every day. And then I got tapped to move over into our operations team and move into our supply chain. And I was in this meeting and these people kept talking about IR. It was on every slide, IR this, IR that. And I spent 45 minutes of a 60 minute meeting. You I couldn't figure out what they were talking about because like this doesn't make sense like you are not talking about incident rate. I don't think I don't you guys seem like you don't even know what you're talking about. And so finally I kind of like sheepishly raised my hand and like hey. What is IR mean to you guys and like it means internal repair. Like it means what like yeah it means internal repair so that was like a supply chain thing. It's like even within the same company. you transfer between business units and some acronyms or phrases might be used. And like I was totally lost. And I think that can happen to lots of people because everyone else in that room had been in that business unit for a long time. So they didn't think that IR was a term, was like an insider term. So yeah, that's my example of like same company and having that exact same, like that exact issue even like after a business unit transition. What is the most ridiculous piece of corporate jargon that you have heard recently? I'll tell you mine. recently something that I've never heard about that, that says something like, let's open the kimono. yeah, that's actually a terrible one. It's a bit rude even, Yeah, it's a problem. You should not open your kimono. That's not something you should do, especially in mixed company. And so here's an example where that can play. Interestingly, I worked in our international division, so I did a good bit of work with our Japan teams. They wear kimonos in Japan. You know it's a part of their culture and they certainly don't open them like it's extremely rude to do that. And so I had part of my team on a call one time and someone started saying open the kimono and you could see that the entire Japan team just like went. And they were like they were not happy about this phrase and so even like across cultures and all kinds of stuff like that's it. That's a great one. My example is going to be a little different because it's not necessarily corporate jargon. But in the US we just went through the election. And so there's so many cable news channels that just for five months all they did was talk about the election. And so, you know, every break they would say things like, and when we come back, we'll have an analysis of this. And they would use all these big phrases. And really all they were saying was like, hey, when we come back from the break, we're just going to talk some more about the same stuff that we've talked about for the last three months. But they couldn't say that because that sounds, you know, Like they can't get paid millions of dollars if that's what they're doing. And so they use all these big phrases and words about the analysis that they're going to do on the election results or the poll this or that. And the truth is like they were just going to talk about the same thing again with maybe like a different guest. So that was like really salient for me just because we've had the election in the US and just no matter where you went everyone was going to talk about their. views on the election or whatever but but they didn't want to say it that way because they wanted to sound like smarter and more important or something. Let's talk solutions and advice. For someone that is trying to rise in their careers, how can they resist falling into the corporate jargon trap and still sound competent? Mm hmm. So I first I just love that question because I think I think it's a trap that we all fall into because we want to be successful. And because we want to be successful, we naturally going to start imitating behaviors, even if we don't understand those behaviors. So a couple of things. One is I don't I don't think I don't want people to leave this conversation and think that you or I are saying. Hey, you should never use an acronym or you should never use a phrase in your business. But instead, the first step is just. How would like a high school graduate? Like hear what you're saying? Are you using actual English or using whatever your native languages? Are you actually saying things that if you if you wrote it down, someone could relatively kind of know what you mean or Is there so much insider speaking acronyms in there that like fundamentally people can't even know what you're talking about. So if you're seeking to rise to the ranks sure like you need to do some signaling that's a natural thing to do. But put the filter on yourself like did I speak English just now. Did I actually say something that's intelligible or does it have no real meaning. It's all just vapid. And the second thing is. to really consider your audience. And again, like I said, the more homogenous you're presenting to, in some ways the more okay it is to use this insider language because there's more, a higher percentage of insiders when it's a small group. But the larger your group is, the more cross-functional your team is, the more you should seek to define terms, bring clarity to what you're talking about. Yeah. And then the third thing is define things for people. And I think I see this happen a lot with metrics where a business will have a defined metric. And so they then create an acronym for that. Like that metric gets named some acronym. And then five years later, you actually found out that no one knows what that acronym stands for anymore. And that means that there's that the metrics don't match when different business units do the analysis because I think it means this and you think it means that. And so we fundamentally do analysis wrong because we're not clear on what that metric is. And so I say that to say we all have an opportunity to define those and kind of make certain, hey guys, this is what we're talking about. This is how we define that metric in our business unit. Do you guys have any questions about that? Does that match how you all think it? Think about it. And that simple question or conversation right there, sometimes that's a five minute discussion and you'll find that there's huge amounts of value or huge amounts of wasted effort happening because business units are talking past each other because they've defined something almost the same way. But they they're always fighting about why their analysis doesn't match or whatever. If someone is surrounded by jargon heavy colleagues, what is the subtle way of telling them that you are not getting it or bring them back into plain language without being offensive or something like that? Yeah, so I think part of it's just being comfortable asking for clarity. Hey, I just want to make sure I understand what we all mean when we say that, especially you can see this like in a meeting context where, you know, some leader is kind of like giving out deliverables to people to go do and they may define, hey guys, we want to do a deep dive postmortem analysis on, you know, whatever. Like be kind. to the people that are kind of receiving that instruction and say, can we just all agree like, what's a deep dive postmortem? Like, what does that mean to you? And you don't have to ask it in an attacking sort of way, but you can ask it in a way of, hey, I wanna make certain that I or the team give Santiago what he wants. And so when Santiago asks for a deep dive, I should say, hey Santiago, what would be good to have in a deep dive for you? And that conversation automatically brings us into natural language. and it has the benefit of preventing the team going off and doing a bunch of work and then coming back and presenting it to Santiago. And you're then disappointed because the team didn't do what you wanted. and so it's like, we can actually increase kindness. can also increase the team's efficiency by pushing and pulling and asking questions like, Hey, what do you mean by that? Or. When I hear that, I think this, is that what you meant when you said that? I want to make certain I give you what you need. At the beginning of this interview you mentioned excluding people. What's the impact of insider speaking and how does other people feel when they are exposed to these insider ways of communication? I really, I like that question because I think we get a lot of network benefits within our teams when everyone is together and understanding and we lose a lot of efficiency and benefits when people don't understand what's going on. So when, when, we, I just lost my train of thought. What was the question? Will you say it again? I'm sorry. The Insiders speak. yes, the impact of insider speak. I'm sorry. So it the issue it causes is anyone who's not willing to like stand up and say, hey, I don't understand. They're automatically at a loss. And so they're going to have less information. They're going to feel is not a part of the group. And so insider speak, whether that's acronyms or like special phrases that your team uses. It's just going to reduce their efficiency and they're also just naturally going to be scared potentially to say they don't understand because everyone acts like they do understand. And so I think it can be part of the impact is simply. It makes people feel excluded because the expectation is that they understand and then they're going to be afraid. To ask a question. Because they don't want to feel dumb and they don't want you to think that they aren't a strong member of the team. So that naturally hurts people, I think. Who invents, who brings these sometimes strange expressions into companies? I don't want to take out like a really super too strong stance against consultants. I've worked for a lot of consultants. They were super great. Lots of my mentors have come from that industry. But I do think consultant speak is part of it. And it's because fundamentally consultants are seeking to sound smart because they want you to pay them for being smart. And often within companies, those consultants are engaging with very senior leaders. And as a result, people within the company want to compete at the same level as the consultants. And so they're then kind of doing that. So I do think consultants are part of it. I think another and I referenced this earlier is I think some of it is there are highly successful people that that are using these words and phrases legitimately like they aren't trying to be jargony. And so. Once those people are successful, it's going to trickle down and pass down to others. So I don't think it's necessarily a malicious thing that this happens, but it's almost always gonna like originate from the top in some way because once people see that, they want to emulate those leaders. know what mean? If we could almost eliminate corporate jargon and acronyms and weird expressions, do you think we will be more productive? I have no question about that. think we would be more productive. We would have probably shorter meetings frequently. We would often have more understanding, but also like they'd be less awkward. I think a lot of times these like jargon sort of meetings, if you like were a fly on the wall, kind of watching what was happening, you would you'd be like, I don't even understand what these guys are saying. Are we certain that they understand what they're saying? I don't think that word means what you think it means sort of conversations. And so I think the more we could reduce jargon, the more efficient our meetings would be. And I'll just give that one caveat we've referenced before. Sometimes a well-priced acronym or a shortening or those sorts of things, those do increase efficiency when they're done right. But they reduce efficiency when you look at a slide and it's like, you know, It's like alphabet soup. Like you're just looking at it there's nothing but uppercase letters that are all kind of mushed together. Like I don't I don't really know what that means. If you could eliminate three buzzwords together Hmm. All together forever from corporate, what would be your choice? Synergy, I've kind of already talked about that one. I just wish people could say efficiency or benefit. Like why do we have to say synergy? Low hanging fruit. To me, it's just a weird phrase. Like, can we just say easy opportunity? Like to me, low hanging fruit doesn't actually sound good. Like, do you want your fruit to hang low? I don't know. And then I'd also get ready to utilize. I don't know that there's any time when people say, we're going to utilize when they shouldn't just say use. And you said three connective a fourth. Okay. I wish people would use leverage correctly. So often utilize or leverage are kind of frequently kind of used interchangeably. But the truth is like leverage is when you have a lever like you have something there's a fulcrum point like it's an engineering term. And it references that you can, through the benefits of things like mechanical engineering, you can get to a better, easier outcome because you have a lever and a fulcrum. But often people say the term, like use the word leverage when they just mean use. But like a leverage is a fantastic business concept that brings a lot of value. if done, if we use leverage correctly in our business, we are much more efficient. and we're more capital efficient, like all kinds of things. And so I wish people would stop using leverage in the wrong way, but really get used to using leverage, not just the word, but the concept within their business in a way that drives more efficiency and more profit, because that's what leverage will do for you. Leverage isn't just using something, it's doing something much more than You just remind me of one that I have a lot of doubts about it. People say align, but I have the impression that people want to say agree. What is the difference between aligning and agreeing? Yeah, so I I think that's a great question. I actually do think there's a difference and this is this is a great example of one that the word is so overused that it loses some of its meaning. Because I believe that our teams and our companies we should have a culture of. What I say is disagree and commit. Meaning it should be totally acceptable within our culture to. In a trusting way disagree with each other and after we've all disagreed we commit to what we're going to do. And and so I think of alignment in that context of when used correctly. Alignment means that we all understand the path that we're going down. Whereas agree gives the idea that I agree with everything we're saying and that's not true like there there should be times as leaders that we. We don't necessarily agree with each other, Santiago, but we should be aligned at the business outcomes that we're seeking. And then we have a strategy that we, that we all believe is focused on delivering that. We don't all have to agree that every component of that strategy is perfect. But I think, I think you're right. People use like agree and align interchangeably and, they're like, it's a alignment. a very powerful concept when used correctly. And when like embedded into your trusting culture of your team. Alignment is an important concept where people don't have to agree to be aligned. And I wish again, kind of like leverage that we could use that a little bit more appropriately so that the word means what it should mean. What advice do you give to the many people that listen to this podcast if they want to do a detox, vocabulary detox and improve their communication at work for more impactful and efficient communication? So one, think is just review your communications and kind of see where am I not saying things that I could say. Like I'm using words or phrases that are big or unwieldy or unnecessary, whereas I could just say something that is more direct and clear. One thing that helped me is years ago, about three or four years into my career, so 15 or 18 years ago, I found this book called Why Business People Speak Like Idiots, which is a fantastic title for a book. And then like the subtitle was a bullfighters guide. Bull, you get it. And so I would recommend that resource to people like go look for that book. Why corporate people speak like idiots. And it kind of talks about so many of these things in a really funny way. that helps highlight kind of how silly it is. And then the last thing on a detox is approach everything from a lens of how would an outsider see this? So how would someone who's new to the team perceive this? Or if we were presenting this information cross-functionally, would the cross-functional audience understand? And even more impactfully, if you're someone who deals with clients a lot, the more you can kind of think of like, would my client understand this? Am I using language that is specific to my company or my business unit? Well, your client isn't in your company or your business unit. And so approaching things from that level of how can I make this more understandable to my partner? Because our goal in communication should be to help our partner to understand as opposed often we think of our goal in communication is to say what I want to say. And really our goal is to be understood by our partner. And so putting that lens, that outside lens looking into what we're saying, I think will help all of us just be a little bit more empathetic and caring to those around us when we're communicating. That sounds amazing. Adam, how can people get in touch with you or companies get in touch with you and you can help them improve their communication and use this jargon and other things. So appreciate the question. The fastest way to get me in lots of ways, I'm super active on LinkedIn. I post every day about great leadership and trust and building culture in your teams. So always welcome for people to contact me through LinkedIn and check out my content there. The other thing you can do is my website is thetenaciousoperator.com. You can email me at adam at thetenaciousoperator.com. and would love to talk about leadership and culture and figure out how we can help build a more trusting team where people don't feel afraid and they don't have to use jargon to sound like they're accomplishing things. Adam, thank you so much for number one, not using that much jargon today, and also for demystifying some of the most common heard expressions in meetings across the world, in thousands, millions of meetings across the world. And we wish you the best and we will follow your advice. Thank you, Santiago. It's been so much fun. I'm glad we could do it.