ProductiviTree: Cultivating Efficiency, Harvesting Joy

ProductiviTree #10 The Resilient High Performer: How to Stay Productive Without Burning Out with Dr. Eva Selhub

• Santiago Tacoronte • Season 1 • Episode 10

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In this conversation, Dr. Eva Selhau discusses the intricate relationship between resilience and productivity, emphasizing the importance of understanding stress and burnout. She highlights how personal experiences and knowledge shape our perceptions of productivity, advocating for a holistic approach that includes physical health, mindfulness, and self-compassion. Dr. Selhau also addresses common myths about productivity, the physiological effects of stress, and the need for mindset shifts among leaders to foster a healthier work environment. 

Takeaways 

  • Personal suffering often drives the pursuit of knowledge. 
  • Resilience is about efficiency and energy management. 
  • Knowledge changes our perception of reality and productivity. 
  • True burnout is characterized by a lack of hope and energy. 
  • Stress is a natural part of life that motivates growth. 
  • Changing the narrative around stress can lead to better outcomes. 
  • Physical health significantly impacts resilience and productivity. 
  • Pushing harder does not equate to increased productivity. 
  • Self-compassion is crucial for recovery from burnout. 
  • Power and value come from within, not from external titles. 

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Dr. Eva Selhub is an internationally recognized resilience expert, physician, author, keynote speaker, and spiritual advisor. Dr. Eva served as Instructure of Medicine at Harvard Medical School and as a clinical associate of the world renowned Benson-Harris Institute for Mind-Body Medicine at the Massachusetts General Hospitals for close to 20 years, serving as the medical director for six of those years. She now works with clients and companies and served on a variety of boards to redefine the ways in which we approach resilience, health and leadership, encouraging her audience to believe in the possibility of transformation, connecting one's spiritual core and discovering optimal resilience, enlightened connectedness and joy and fulfillment. She's the author of six books, including Burnout for Dummies, Resilience for Dummies, Your Health Destiny, The Stress Management Handbook, The Love Response. and the co-author of Your Brain on Nature. Dr. Eva, welcome to Productivity. Thank you for having me. You've spent years studying resilience and stress. What sparks your passion to study so much and be so dedicated to this field? I would say the first thing is personal suffering, right? Why do we get into a lot of what we do is to sort of seek meaning and find answers to our own issues. But I've always been fascinated by the human body, the human mind, the human spirit, and how we navigate life, how we navigate our well-being, and how we stay healthy and happy. So as a physician, as a medical doctor, My first love was healing and helping and being in service and seeing people thrive and flourish. And then as I went through my own trials and tribulations, I thought, wow, medicine doesn't have all the answers, does it? And I started the exploration of the mind, body, spirit to see what truly allows people to thrive in the world. Many people link productivity with hustle and working harder. That's a classic. But you argue that resilience plays a major role. Can you define resilience in the context of productivity? Well, think it's important to remember, I like to use sort of the example of a car, so anybody can relate to the car. So if you push and push and push and push and push a car, what happens? the brakes. breaks and if you don't put gas in it or good quality gasoline or fuel and you don't take it in for maintenance and you don't give a chance to turn it off, what happens? It breaks or it rests. It's what we call oxidative stress in the body. So yes, working hard can get us to be more productive. However, What's more productive, swimming upstream or swimming downstream? swimming with a current or against a current, how far are you going to go, and how thriving are you going to be after you're done, once you get to your destination. So it's thinking not only about productivity from going from A to B, or A to Z, whatever that is, but it's at the how and how much effort am I going to use and the efficiency with which I actually get there. So it's a much bigger picture of, you we tend to look at everything in a very linear fashion as opposed to a very expansive and wider lens of looking at how not only can I be more productive, if you will, but I actually feel productive. I have energy. And the more energy I have, the less effort it takes to do whatever it is I need to do. So not only it's what I get done, but it's the less effort required to get. what I need to get done to use less effort. That's when resilience comes in. How can people get out of the linear mindset that you just mentioned? How can people think the whole spectrum of productivity, efficiency, effectiveness? Well, so it's an interesting thing. First, it's having this conversation, right? Just by me saying this, now you've opened up your mind. You said, I didn't think about it that way. So now you're different. So now we've changed perspective, right? Our reality is based on our perception and what we've collectively been told. So you think a glass is meant for drinking, but maybe it could be meant for something else, but you don't know that because you haven't learned it. So lot of this is just knowledge of being, as we gain more knowledge, our perception of our reality changes and our relationship with that reality changes. So the first step is knowledge. The second piece of it is actually fear or stress. So that when the body, the mind goes into a state of fear, it doesn't think that you're managing a stock fund. It's thinking you're being chased by... a saber-toothed We haven't been around long enough for evolution to take place for our brain to know the difference between real or imagined threats. As long as the brain thinks you're being threatened, it's thinking that you're being chased by a predator. And if you're being chased by a predator, it's not time to think about how to do your taxes or which fund is better than that or to think in a global way. There's no time for that. have to get from point A to point B. It's life altering, life changing, life saving situation that you're in. So your brain becomes like a horse that has blinders that you can only see in a litter in your way what's in front of you. So that actually happens physiologically. That the parts of your brain that allow you to reason, allow you to think globally, expansively, consciously shut down so that you can just go from point A to point B. So tactics, whether it's societal, cultural, governmental, or business, of creating more fear lead to more linear thinking as well. We hear a lot about burnout these days, which I think is a good thing. It's more awareness. But from your experience, do most people recognize the symptoms, the signs of burnout, or does it just creep up on them suddenly? I think that's a really good question. think, think, no, but for many different reasons. I think one is that in many ways people say, I feel, I feel burnt out, but they actually don't know what burnout means. So many people say, God, I'm so stressed. I'm so burnt out, but they still have more gas in the tank to keep going and they keep going. And true burnout is when You're starting to become really negative about everything. You can't see the light at the end of the tunnel. You start withdrawing from your life. You're withdrawing from work. Everything is an effort. And you're exhausted. You're physically exhausted, mentally exhausted, emotionally exhausted. And you don't really want to exist. You just don't have that energy to keep going. And so when you get to that level where you're just so done, you don't want to get there. You don't want that to happen. But what are the signs and symptoms that start leading you there? That you are physically tired. Now people are physically tired all the time. What do they do when they're tired? What do you do when you're tired? You take a nap? You sleep? Not when you have stuff to produce. I've got to get stuff done. I've got to drink my coffee. I've got to take my my whatever, those drinks that keep me awake. So what happens is, is that we don't pay attention to the body's signals. We don't pay attention to, that's it's like this kind of a two-fold question. Because on one hand, people might say, I feel burnt out, but they're not really burnt out yet. Now the other hand are, Tendency as human beings is not to pay attention not to be mindful of how the body's whispering to us before it screams And letting us know what our needs and we're not paying attention and then we override it because of productivity I'm to get something done or fear or fear of I need to do this which overrides our bodies needs And we override our need for love we override our need for food nutrient nutrient rich food We override our need for the right fuel. We override our need to have a voice, to be supported, to be heard, to have autonomy, to have equal responsibility or whatever that is. And then the more that fuel, because everything that ultimately is fuel, is depleted, then we don't notice it because it's in the face of getting something done. you get closer to a burnout. So that's sort of a mixed answer to that question of a yes and a no. Yes, people are noticing it, but no, they're not noticing it. Let's speak a little bit of science, doctor. What does actually happen to our brains and our bodies when we feel overwhelmed, stressed, or when we even reach burnout? Yeah, well, I think the first thing is to understand is what happens when we're experiencing stress because then we understand what happens in the burnout, right? Because resilience is a curve. It kind of is a bell-shaped curve. It looks like, you know, when most of us are probably living somewhere in the middle where we're doing well, but wellness can be on one end burnout, you know, go over here. And then wellness can also go on this side, which is thriving, flourishing fitness, like an athlete, right? They're under a lot of stress, but they get better. They get stronger, they get faster. That would be this end. And then there's people that are under a lot of stress and it just keeps knocking them down until they're on this end. So that's sort of what that curve looks like. So it's all related to how we adapt, manage, thrive. as result of As long as we're living, we're moving, we're dynamic, there will always be change. And so the system will change itself to try to get into balance. For instance, we're going to sit and we not sit still most likely this entire time. Why? Because we get uncomfortable. So that discomfort is a stress and when we do, we should change positions. So now we're comfortable again. That's how it works. We're in balance. something happens, the system corrects itself, so it's back in balance. you're living your life, you get hungry, hunger is a stress, you eat something, you take care of the stress, system's back in balance. We call that allostasis, which is the ability to achieve stability through change, what we call adaptability, to be able to adapt to a given stress. So life will always have stress. In fact, If you weren't experiencing stress, the only way that you don't experience stress is if you're dead, if you're not alive. So it's just part of life. Stress is what motivates us to get up in the morning, it motivates us to eat something, it motivates us to put on something warmer and more cold, it motivates us to seek information, it motivates us to invent new things. It's a wonderful thing. Okay, it's what allows us to grow and flourish and create and innovate. At the same time, if Our brain perceives that we're incapable of managing that stress, of extinguishing it, of taking care of it. It becomes an unmanageable stress. And that's when fear sets in. And when fear sets in, that's when all the physiological complications can occur. Because when the stress response is activated, so we have a stress, the brain recognizes the stress, stress response is activated, primarily stress hormones are activated, stress like cortisol and adrenaline, a whole slew of physiological changes occur. But those physiological changes normally get extinguished when the stress is taken care of. That's what we call adaptability. So we have a heightened arousal and back to balance. Heightened arousal, back to balance. But if that stress isn't taken care of, that arousal stays up. What does that look like? Well, if you're being chased by a lion, you're not going to sleep. Adrenaline is going to course through your brain. You're not going to think clearly because it's strutting down your thinking parts of your brain. Remember horse with blinders, point A to point B. It shuts down the reproductive system, it shuts down the digestive system, causes contractions of the stomach, the esophagus and so forth. It creates muscle tension. Heart rate goes up, blood pressure goes up, respirations go up. The inflammation goes up until it goes down. Serotonin, dopamine, all those neurotransmitters that normally make you feel good go down. You became less sociable, more contracted, more angry. So imagine that that's what happens when the system is in fear. And if that happens for prolonged period of time, the system eventually will burn itself out or get sick with prolonged heart rate that's up, prolonged blood pressure that's up, prolonged muscle tension that's up, prolonged inflammation. Are you getting the picture? That's how we get physical problems, but also psychological problems. Because imagine if you're unhappy and moody and not socialized and angry and like this, how well are you going to communicate? How well are you going to make decisions? How well are you going to problem solve? How well are you going to sleep? How well are you going to then communicate with your loved ones and relate? So then it also affects everything else in our lives and affects our belief systems, affects our mindset. And so for a person who has experienced stress and has succumbed to it, let's say they failed, something failed, weren't able to overcome it, and it keeps happening. They can develop what Martin Solomon calls learned helplessness, that limited belief system that I can't, I can't do it. As opposed to the person says, bring it, I can do it. So that mindset, that belief system, the emotions, the negative emotions, all add to that belief system of fear and stress that can burn out the system. So that's what's happening physiologically is also happening against psychologically and emotionally, that they come together to affect the system. to believe that it's not possible to handle a given challenge, not only now, but also in the future, to anticipate that there's going to be problems in the future. So it becomes a limited mindset versus a growth. Now, doctor, we live in the era of extremes, polarization. You have on one side a generation that was thriving under pressure, which is sensitive now. On the other hand, you have a new generation that almost ran away from stress. And we are in the middle of a bit of a tidal wave there. How can people find the right level of stress. Stress is needed. You said that. It's very clear for creativity, for activity. How can you find strike a balance? Well, I think we change our narrative around it, don't we? That's what I'm trying to get at. This idea that stress is bad. Mm-hmm. Change our narrative. Change the narrative to, how can I use it to my advantage? How can I take care? Now the big issue is, is that people who work really hard also did it at their own expense. They did it to the end of burnout because again, their goal, their outcome was more important than the self. Getting to the destination was more important than the car itself. Okay, so this next generation saying, hey, the car is important. I want to keep the car. I don't care about the destination. There has to be an easier way. And so what I'm saying is, they've been, the wisdom traditions have been saying this for thousands of years. There is an easier way when you walk with the way, as the Taoists say. You walk with the way, you walk with nature and are aware of the rhythms of your life, of your body, of nature, of what's around you. And that comes with self-compassion. That comes with mindfulness. That comes with the ability to self-regulate the nervous system. so that then you can see clearly, navigate appropriately, and do things with more ease. And that can also bring more joy, more camaraderie, more socialization into your life so that you can have both. We've talked a lot about the brain. Let's speak about physical activities, sleep, diet. How do they affect resilience? Is it a big factor for one's resilience? Well, think about it. So let's just think about this logically. I mean, the answer to that is yes, and also think about it. I'm sure everybody who's listening has had a point in their life where they either had the flu or they didn't sleep well. Now how well were you able to do your job? How well were you able to make decisions? How were you able to communicate, to socialize, to be fully present? What was your mindset like? What was your emotional state like? Okay? So you exist in a physical body and this physical body is what gets you places. This is your car, okay? Maybe your brain is the driver, but you're the car. So are you driving a Marzorati? Are you driving a Porsche? Are you driving a bicycle? What are you driving? And how well do you want to maintain it? It's important to remember that everything in life is fuel. think of it as this way. You're either... putting a fuel in your system or a toxin. or you're either putting in fuel or you're leaking fuel. So would you put vegetable oil in your Maserati? Would you? Right? Would you not take your Maserati in for maintenance? wouldn't. Would you drive it all the time and never turn it off? So it's really logic that you're, this, to honor this mind, body, spirit system is so brilliantly designed. Whatever you believe in, it's so brilliantly designed the way everything works. And the more I learn about, know, when I learn about the science and it's just fascinating. It's so brilliantly designed. It knew exactly how to work with nature. and that sort of thing and so to be able to nurture the body with nutrient rich fuel that is going to support the gut your gut is your first line of defense 95 percent of your serotonin which is what allows you to stay happy insane comes from your gut It's your largest immune organ. That means it helps you defend, it helps defend you against pathogens, against getting sick. So if you're not taking care of your gut through your ingesting... You're not going to have a very long life or not a healthy and happy one anyway. Majority of problems that we see in medicine and in psychiatry and in psychology stems from the gut. Stems from nutrition. Okay. It's huge. It's huge. My colleague and I wrote about it 15, 16 years ago and now it's this huge burgeoning field. It's its own department in Harvard now in nutritional psychiatry. So. It's very much connected to your well-being. Also exercise, you were meant to move. You weren't meant to be sedentary. This whole idea that we need to go into a gym to move as opposed to just our natural way of being. So the body has outlets of relief that keep that stress response in check. If you want to think of stress as like a dam, okay? And it has outlets at the water stays level. If you cut those outlets off, the dam is going to break. So we get that burnout. So all these different things that we do either can create higher stress response activation because it creates a stress that's not manageable for the body, or it puts it out. It creates more serotonin, more dopamine, less inflammation, so on and so forth. So moving your body, getting adequate sleep, even modest sleep deprivation. can increase inflammation and offset all your hormones. Okay, so sleep, exercise, time for recovery, so relaxation, meditation, time off, joy, meditation, taking time with people you love, nutrient-rich food in your system, spending time in nature. Those are just some of the things that support the body physically, mentally, emotionally, spiritually that supports resilience and flourishing. What is a common productivity myth you hear that actually make people less effective? Pushing. I think that productivity is you need to push, you need to work harder. You know, I like to say work smarter, not harder. So it's sort of, I've got to get this done. I've got to push, I've got to push. So and even with when I'm working with leaderships in their direct report, you know, they think that if they push their direct reports, they'll work harder. You know, if you threaten and you push and you you and you function from a place of fear, the outcome will get better. And in fact, that's not true. What happens is not only are you pushing people who are not altogether present. You're causing more illness, more sickness, but also more mistakes. This notion of I have to be more productive, I have to work all the time, I have to work 24-7 or whatever that is, doesn't give the system time for recovery. It's like working out all the time and not giving your muscles a chance to recover. So it just actually doesn't make sense. What's your take on the popular morning routine? The 5 a.m. club, hit the gym, be productive already at 7 a.m. Do you really need one to be productive? I personally, look, everybody's different. So that's the, I think the first thing, I think the first thing people want to acknowledge is that they're different. And that's the other, this is really this idea that everybody's the same and everybody's motivated in the same way. That's not the case. What I encourage and invite people to do is to become, and what I teach is how to become more self-aware of what I need, what best works for me. So I... Maybe being productive in the morning is my best time to be productive. That's when my juices get flowing. And then I do my meditation later in the afternoon or later in the day when I reboot. It's fine. Figure out what works for you. Me personally, my morning is my time. My morning is when I do meditate and I do my jingang practice and I do my journaling and then I exercise. But it's my time when it doesn't belong to anybody else but me. I'm not thinking about work. I'm not thinking about my to-do list. I'm thinking about me. I'm my gas tank up so that then I can be present for the rest of the day. So again, that's what works for me. I do recommend that morning to do that. To kind of luxuriate in feeding your soul, your body, your spirit so that then you can then go out in the day. It's like filling up your tank. But again, everyone works different. When you coach executives or entrepreneurs, what is the biggest mindset shift they need to make to stay productive without burning out? It seems like the higher the pay grade, the more you need to exhaust yourself and burn yourself out. What's the antidote to that? Yeah, think, first of all, I think that that's your it's true that that is what is happening, but it doesn't need to be that way. And I think that notion that I carry more responsibility. So therefore, you know, there's more on my plate. And so what is it that I said before about this notion of stress that isn't manageable, it leads to what mindset? Fear. Okay, there's a difference between something that perceiving something is manageable or not manageable. So if I'm overwhelmed, I'm not calling it that because I'm a big head honcho founder, CEO, millionaire, billionaire, whatever you want to label yourself as. This notion that the higher you get, the more seriously you have to take yourself. And the more seriously you take yourself, then the more serious you take everything else that's around you. And then to your brain, it becomes life and death. Remember, your brain doesn't distinguish between real threats and non-threats. But if you believe you're that important, and you believe that whatever you're doing is that important, and then you believe whatever you're doing gets really overwhelming, and I've got so much to my plate that I just have to work all the time. then your brain will think you're being chased by a saber-toothed and will be in fight or flight, which will burn you out eventually because the system can't stay up like that all the Alright, so not to say that it isn't true that you have a big job that's really important, but lots of jobs are on the line and people depend on you. That is true. So we're not minimizing. But sort of the zen way is not to be attached. To be able to get to a place where I'm in attunement and alignment, I'm not attached to the outcome, and then I'm able to then navigate and make better decisions for myself and others. So it comes down to being able to regulate the nervous system. It's to bring that nervous system into safety mode so that I have access. to my global larger thinking abilities, recognition, problem solving. I'm able to stay calm in the face of a storm. I'm able to turn pressure into purpose, chaos into harmony, and my stress into strength. Not only for me, but everybody else that's around me. Yet we glorify our work. So it's very common to see executives and conversations in corridors. How busy am I? And it's somehow seen it. If that makes you happy, you can do that. Again, why would somebody need to do that? Because it makes them feel better about themselves. But if I really feel good about myself, I don't need to do that. But don't you feel that it's a pressure in companies, in corporations, to reward business? Almost as if it were a badge of honor. Again, you have to look at the why. Why did it happen to begin with? We do these things because we don't feel safe, good enough, strong enough, loved enough, whatever enough to begin with. So we have to come up with these personas. I mean, people do that with me too. They're like, do you want to be called doctor? I'm like, I don't need to be called anything. Whatever makes you feel better. Right? I don't need to be, I know I'm a doctor. I mean, I know that that's what I do. But if it makes you feel better, you worked so hard, you deserve that title. That's only if I didn't feel good about myself I wouldn't need that. I have that title, sure. Do I need it? So a lot of the work that I want to do with people, I do with people is changing that narrative and how we relate to ourselves and we relate to our reality and to know our value comes from within so that then we can share it without as opposed to you need to value me because I'm working so hard. You need to value me because I'm your boss. Power comes from within. And if I stand in my power, then I'm powerful. Now, it doesn't mean I don't talk about how busy I am. I can talk about how busy I am. But I'm not talking about how busy I am to show off. I'm just a fact. So again, to get to a place where there's sort of non-emotionality, there's a place where there's non-fear, there's a place of non-insecurity, it just is. So again, we're the Zen masters of our own life. I'm busy, so what? It's part of the job. Isn't that great? I'm busy, isn't that great? This is really exciting. I've got so many problems to figure out. How exciting. I'm making a great team, and we're going to figure this out. That's a very different conversation, and it's also going to influence the people around you very differently. You work with many leaders in very high positions. What is the biggest transformation you have seen and what changed for them, or for him, or for her? I smile because I'm trying to figure out which ones I want to talk about. you know, it's for me, even though some of these people are my age and some of them are older, but I feel like when I watch my clients transform with like watching her, I don't want to say this in a way that's demeaning, but it's like, know, when you feel so proud and you watch somebody really shift and have what I call the, the aha moments. Um, you actually, this is, this is funny. The, I like to call this the levels of O, you know, so I might say like our first conversation when you, sort of understood, I haven't thought about that that way. Right. You go, Oh, sort of, it's kind of your mind kind of starts understanding conception concepts differently. So it's, Oh, and then you actually have an emotional reaction to something. So it's a deeper O. So I call it the levels of the O. So there's the intellectual O. that's interesting. And then something that's felt, go, wow. And then there is the O that's embodied. where everything's now different. Like your life will never be the same. You're just transformed. So that's what happens in this process. As we start out with sort of an intellectual O, Huh, never thought about it that way. So having a shift emotionally, where you start relating to things differently, because the emotional mastery happens, which then supports the mental mastery, to a shift in the way you actually now exist in life. And so the people that I've worked with, they've gone from near burnout to thriving, to... There are people working with them saying, wow, so different to be working with. They are leading their teams in a different way. They're taking moments to listen. They're learning to mindfully listen. They're learning how to be healers rather than just leaders. They're learning how to be present, how to be present with compassion. Their marriages aren't falling apart. Some of them actually have had to leave their marriages realizing that they were toxic. So their lives have really grown and changed and they've also said, you know, the beautiful aspect is them figuring out what else they want to do with their lives also and to help. What are rapid fire questions? Answer in 30 seconds. Number one. What's the number one productivity tip you swear by? Well, funnily enough, my number one productivity, I swear by, is getting better organized. Most of the people I work with are so overwhelmed because their ideas are here and they actually haven't mind mapped and created an organizational structure in their calendars for it. So the time blocking, mind mapping, so getting actually better organized will improve efficiency. What is a simple way to reset after a stressful day? Easy way to reset is go for a walk, exercise, get all that stress that's built up. So movement is one of my favorite ways. You can also do a meditation, mindful walk, mindful meditation movement like qigong, tai chi, or just hit a punching bag. So I find that after a stressful day, just getting that energy out somewhere or another through movement is an easy, quick way to do it unless you want to meditate. That's always good too. But I think when all that pressure build up, it's always a good idea to move. Coffee or meditation? What's better for focus and flow? Meditation, that one I won't even go between. Coffee is fake. So we want to do what's real and true and what belongs to you and it's not external. So the meditation will help you ground yourself, will get rid of all the noise and get you into the place of centering and calm and will give you more energy than you realize. Rather than fake energy. If you could ban one bad work habit forever, what would it be? One, I don't use the word bad or good, FYI. But if I could ban a work habit that serves no one. Hmm. That's a hard one. A work habit. I might need to get back to that one. Do we have examples? I mean, I don't know what people's habits are that they do all the time. I would say a work habit is not taking breaks. that you think that you have to work all the time and you work through lunch and work through, it's not serving you any good whatsoever. So I think that that's a really worthless work habit. I'll tell you one I hate, saying yes to all meetings, not having the capacity to say no, I need a break, I need space, I'll decline. So many people it's incapable to decline because they fear of the image, the presence, well. that's the fear part. Yeah, totally. What's the best book you've read on resilience or end productivity? Other than mine? No, I'm just kidding. I actually think, you know, one of my favorite books that it's not necessarily on productivity, but I do find that it's really good in leadership and how he breaks it down is actually called Traction. And it's book that I recommend to a lot of my leaders. So that's one. And the other book that I really love by a dear friend that is about leader is healer. Hmm. So there two different spectrums. One is really just about efficiency, productivity, but also how to lead a team, how to get people aligned together, how to work together. And like I said, how to keep your people, it's called traction. And the other one is more about mindfulness, being present and how to be a leader as a healer. You mentioned your book. What is the name? And how can people follow you, get in touch with you and know more about your work? Yeah, so I've got six books. The first one was called The Love Response, which is how to shift on fear and stress through love, the physiology of love. We've got Your Brain on Nature, Your Health Destiny, which is how to shift your health. So my 20 years of practice in a book. And then there's Resilience for Dummies, Burnout for Dummies, and the Stress Management Handbook. So those are all available. You can get them online through Amazon would help have you Barnes Noble. My website is drcellhub.com drcellhub.com so lots of information there for you about services and all sorts of blogs and I'm pretty much all the social media channels. Thank you, doctor. Let's finish with some sound advice. If someone listening this podcast episode today is really feeling burnt out, what is the first thing they should do today or tomorrow morning to start recovering? So the first thing is don't should on yourself. There's nothing you should do. Shoulding actually creates more fear and more shame and it's not helpful at all. So remove that word out of your vocabulary. So what you could do is start with self-compassion. That's number one. That there is nothing that you did wrong to feel this way and that right now it's important for you to take care of you. So number one, start with self-compassion. Number two, start taking some time out. Get unplugged for a bit. So unplug from the computer, unplug from your phone, unplug and get out in nature. Spend time with people who care about you. Be mindful. I would take on mindfulness. Like how to be fully, fully present in the moment with gratitude. So start. doing small pieces of appreciation and gratitude in your life and getting sort of nuggets in. Start feeding yourself slowly. So take, you know, breaks of getting unplugged and getting away from things. To reconnect with yourself, reconnect with nature, reconnect with people, reconnect with what supports you to thrive, to grow, to start establishing who am I and what do I really want. So I would start with that. and you know there's a lot of different apps out there right now. I have a lot of stuff on my channel as well and different meditations you can do that are short. Just again to reconnect, to bring that nervous system into safety mode so that you can really now step back rather than being in this place of fear and chaos, just sort of step back and say what is it that serves me to be at my Dr. Eva Selhau, thank you so much for being with us today. I am sure that the audience will have a lot of moments and I just wish that they will live with the peacefulness and calmness that you have transmitted to me in these few minutes. Thank you so much. Thank you so much.