ProductiviTree: Cultivating Efficiency, Harvesting Joy

ProductiviTree #17 - Kathryn Landis on Surviving Success & Thriving at the Top

• Santiago Tacoronte • Season 1 • Episode 17

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In this insightful conversation, Kathryn Landis shares her journey from experiencing a challenging leadership situation to becoming a coach for executives. She discusses the critical mindset shifts required for leaders transitioning to the C-suite, the importance of collaboration, and how to navigate uncertainty in today's fast-paced environment. Kathryn emphasizes the need for women to advocate for themselves and build sponsorships, while also addressing generational differences in the workplace. The conversation concludes with practical advice for creating impactful meetings and fostering a positive company culture. 

Takeaways 

  • Catherine's experience with a bad boss fueled her passion for coaching leaders. 
  • Transitioning to the C-suite requires a shift from functional expertise to collaboration. 
  • Building relationships with C-suite peers is essential for success. 
  • Leaders must focus on clarity, connection, and commitment during times of uncertainty. 
  • Women should seek sponsors, not just mentors, to advance their careers. 
  • Generational diversity requires leaders to adapt to new work expectations. 
  • High-impact off-sites start with truth and end with ownership. 
  • Company culture must be intentionally built in a hybrid work environment. 
  • Resilience is crucial for leaders in a rapidly changing landscape. 
  • Effective decision-making involves knowing when to act quickly versus when to gather more information. 

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Kathryn Landis helps leaders unlock their full potential, lead high performing teams, and thrive in both work and life. She's a keynote speaker and executive coach whose insights have been featured in Harvard Business Review, Forbes, and Fast Company. And she teaches executive education at New York University. Kathryn is the founder and CEO of Kathryn Landis Consulting, a global executive and team coaching firm. She holds an MBA from Northwestern University and coaching credentials from Columbia, Cornell, and the International Coaching Federation. A National Diversity Council certified diversity professional, she brings deep expertise in leadership, inclusion, organizational effectiveness. Follow her on LinkedIn under Kathryn Landis and subscribe to her newsletter Your Future, Your Work. Kathryn, welcome to ProductiviTree Thank you for having me, excited to be here. Kathryn what was the pivotal moment in your career that made you passionate about coaching leaders at the highest levels? You know, I had an experience with a really bad boss and it changed my career trajectory. And now I have a lot of empathy for the person, but at the time it really made me miserable in my personal life, changed my career trajectory, and it made me want to get on a mission to say, I'm going to help leaders be better. So I like to think of it as turning lemons into lemonade. And now I help leaders maximize their impact because once you do, you can impact. so many people's And reaching the highest levels, they really can help. They can really transform an organization. Somehow he made you a favor, did he? It was actually a woman, but yes, she did me a favor. It made me realize what I wanna do. So I went back to school, studied executive organizational coaching, and I've been doing this for the last five years. I think I took too much of heuristics there trying to guess it was a he. Good point, good catch. Are you still in touch? We are not in touch. I wish the person well. But we all move on, we all get busy. And you can only prioritize so many relationships in your life. You've worked with top executives in Fortune 500 companies and high-grant organizations. What is the biggest misconception about stepping into executive leadership? Yeah, the biggest miss I think is really that mindset shift that you're no longer representing your functional team. You're no longer the best at marketing or sales or operations. Right now, you really need to the best at collaborating with the other C-suite leaders. Your first team has to be the other leaders in the C-suite because you are thinking from an enterprise standpoint. And so a lot of times leaders will still have this territorial mindset. You know, they're jockeying for resources and they're really trying to promote whatever their team is trying to accomplish, but it's not about your functional team anymore. It's about the other folks around the proverbial table in the C-suite. Many leaders struggle with confidence when transitioning from VP or SVP to the C-suite. What are the key mindset shifts that they need to make? First mindset shift is going from a learner to a judger mindset. And what I mean by that is you always have to be curious. You have to be asking the right questions. You're not expected to be the expert. You're expected to ask great questions, understand where the team's going, put a fabulous team together that could really balance you out and support you versus you being that functional expert anymore. You're leading. You're not doing. You've seen executive teams from the inside. What is the number one mistake leaders make when trying to build and influence the C-suite members? Yep. It's funny, I actually teach a whole class on this in an executive master's program at NYU. And for this class, it's to help CMOs maximize their seat at their table and their effectiveness. And there was a study done by Deloitte that only, I think it was only 17 % of executives at the time reported to closely collaborate with the CMO. That's a staggering statistic in a not a good way. And what that means is you're not going to be successful if you're operating on an island. So you need to think about what do your peers care about, right? How do you align incentives? How do you speak their language? How do you create shared goals and alliances, if you will, so that people are on board with your strategy? You're not going to win a loan. And so by rallying, fellowship, even amongst your peers, it'll be a game changer for you. People buy into you. They trust you versus your strategy. So if you're not investing in those relationships, you're gonna fall flat. practical execution versus strategic leadership. How can new executives resist the temptation and urge to micromanage and really, as you said, establish these collaborations and lead from the top? It first starts with awareness, right? You likely got promoted because you're really good at what you've done. You're really good at the functional work. But if you only focus on the tactics, you're not going to be doing the work that only you can do, which is leading the team, which is helping to develop the people, which is helping to create those cross-functional relationships. I had a client that her team was facing a riff in December. And she really couldn't see the forest for the trees because she was so into the details of the tactics. So I helped her to do what she already knew how to do, but to zoom out and think about, OK, well, what does the CEO and the rest of the C-suite really care about? They care about the revenue that was being driven by the marketing organization, and they care about the efficiency in which it's driven. And so she was able to put together a very compelling presentation. to share the impact of marketing in the organization, not one person was cut because she was able to shift her mindset from what they're doing in the day to day, know, impressions or clicks. Nobody cares about that, right? They wanna know what are you doing? What's the impact to your business? And I inherently think that all C-suite leaders know this, but it can be really hard to see the forest for the trees when you're in it. I have a coach so that I do that. Right? I gotta make sure that I'm focused only on the work that I can do. We live in a time of uncertainty and transformation. What's your framework for leading effectively during times of high volatility, change, and VUCA as it's normally called? Yeah, well, I think we're only going to continue to live in a time of uncertainty, right? And so I think that as leaders, people want to look to you to know that you have somewhat of a plan, right? It doesn't mean you have all the answers, but you have an approach to move forward. And I think it comes down to three things. Clarity, right? Are you anchoring people in your vision and strategy, especially when there's a lot of noise and uncertainty? Connection, are you making the vision personal? Do they know? what it means for them, are they part of the co-creation of the vision and strategy? People don't like to feel like things are happening to them. They want to feel like they're happening for them, right? And with them. And then it comes down to commitment through consistency, showing up in alignment with what you say, modeling the behaviors that you expect, and reinforcing these priorities. There's a rule of seven, right? People have to hear the same thing seven times in order to actually digest it. So as a leader, You are the chief or Peter officer, right? You need to say the same thing multiple ways through multiple channels. And I'll also mention that I once had the opportunity to work for Ken Chenault at American Express and I heard him say, never waste a good crisis. So again, I would turn lemons into lemonade and think, what can I do, right? How can I make this situation work for me, work for my team and work for the organization? How can executives get their teams to buy into their vision, especially when resistance is high? Well, typically resistance is high because people don't feel like they're heard or included. Again, it goes back to feeling like things are being done to you versus for you or with you. So I think you really have to consider what's in it for the individuals, what's in it for the organization, what's in it for the customer, and what's at stake if you don't change. think people, and I've seen this in organizations, have a much greater appetite to pivot if they understand. what the circumstances are. Now you don't have to tell them every single detail as a leader, but they at least want to feel like they're along for the ride. They want a shared sense of messaging and ownership, know, aligned incentives. So when they see how the vision connects with their work and their future, you're going to have more buy-in and it's going to feel much more natural and cohesive. You talk about fighting low performers for productivity. What's your stance on handling underperforming executives or leaders? was that there's a saying, know, hire slow, fire fast. And I'm not trying to be, you know, the bad person here. But it's one of the hardest, most critical things you have to do as a leader is recognize what's the impact of the organization this person stays. If you're a C, if that person is a C level executive, not only are they, you know, weighing down the organization, their team probably isn't very being very productive. And folks don't leave. They leave. excuse me, they leave their roles because of the direct manager, right? So they're, it can be creating havoc. I'm working with a senior leader right now at a large pharmaceutical company who learned this the hard way, right? He delayed reallocating three folks. Also reallocated because he could find other roles for them within the organization because he didn't wanna step on any toes or be perceived as. the bad guy, those are his words. But what he realized is, it built up a lot of resentment and animosity across his team, because other people recognize those folks weren't delivering at the same level or caliber that they were. And so that really created a lot of tension and problems within the organization. Let's talk a little bit about women in leadership. Women are clearly underrepresented leaders on sea levels and still face challenges in breaking into the sea suite. What is the most powerful strategy they can use to amplify their impact and break that ceiling? Yeah, there's a quote I think or some research done that said there's more CEOs named John or Kevin in the Fortune 500 than CEOs that are women. I don't know if you've heard that one before. No, but that's shocking. Shocking, not so shocking, right? And I think what I work with a lot of senior leaders that are women are being very clear about what their value, right? And what they bring and then being able to communicate that to others. It's not self promotion for the sake of it. It's making your contributions visible in a way that builds trust. So I also think that as women, focusing on building sponsors. not just mentors, these are people that are gonna be in the room that are gonna speak up and advocate for you, that could be a game changer for advancement. And I also think it's being aware of how you're showing up. Are you taking on unpromotable tasks? I was in a entrepreneurial program last year and I was in this course with all business owners, all CEOs, and we were doing an exercise. brainstorm exercise in these small tables or groups. Six out of the eight tables had women as the scribes for the table, right? So taking notes typically is not what's going to get you promoted, but for whatever reason, these female CEOs felt like that was their role in this informal classroom. And it made me think, wow, if this is what's happening in this class, what's happening in their organizations, right? Who's the one that's always getting the donuts? Who's the one that's already always planning the parties? You laugh, but I've seen senior vice presidents be responsible for getting the snacks when the clients come in. So just being aware of where you're investing your time. I'm not saying that don't plan the party, but just be aware of where you're allocating your time and also who you're asking to do those tasks. What is your take on the... cancellation of DEI programs that we're seeing across the board in large organizations. I think it's a shame that somehow diversity has become a bad word. To me, diversity just means hiring the best people. And that means bringing in a slate of candidates who have different skill sets and experience. know, affinity bias is real, right? The temptation to hire people that are like you. There used to be a saying, when you're hiring someone, would you want to hang out at the airport with them? Could you be stuck in the airport with them? Maybe that's not the best litmus test. I know for me, I'm big picture, right? And I need someone to compliment me as COO that's into the details. We probably won't hang out outside of work, but we make a really great match on the job. So I think that if you want to have a great leadership team, if you want to have being that top core tile of high performing team, you got to have the right mix of people. And you have to have an environment where these leaders that have different perspectives feel like they can have real decision making power, access to key relationships, and a voice that's heard and valued. High-performing executives need to make decisions quickly and effectively. What's your secret to making smart, high-stakes decisions under pressure? Great question. I think of it as a one door or a one way, excuse me, or two way decision. One way decision is it's really hard to undo. You probably need to get more information and data points, take more time to make the decision. But it's the two way door decision where it's not that hard to reverse course or shift. Don't spend a lot of time agonizing over the details. The Minable Viable Product, might be okay and it probably is. So in this market, particularly with all this uncertainty and the pace of change that's so fierce right now, speed and clarity matter more than perfection. So you got to be able to realize what's enough input, just make a call and clearly communicate what that lie is. Offsides and strategic planning sessions can be a waste of time if done wrong and lots of leaders dread them. What is your secret or your formula to make them high impact? Yep, so going back again to clarity, connection and momentum, right? You wanna start with the truth. Great off-sites create a space for real conversation about what's working, what's not working and what's getting in the way. So before I will work with any organization in terms of off-site, you wanna make sure that the leader who's hiring or is putting together the off-site, many cases it's the CEO for me and their C-suite team, are they ready to grow and change? Are they ready to have those difficult conversations? Otherwise, it's kind of like putting lipstick on a pig. We're just gonna do some fun activities, throw some, know, what are those, axes now? We're gonna throw some axes and sing kumbaya. And quite frankly, your team's gonna feel like they weren't heard and there's no progress made. So start with, let's all get committed to getting to the truth. and addressing it. Get clear on the why. So what do you want the difference to be coming out of the offsite? What do you want to hear? What do you want to see? What do you want to feel differently because you had this time together? And design for engagement, right? You want to make sure that this is a moment where people are interacting in a way that they can't interact on the day to day, right? And making sure that in these conversations, there's trust and there's productive conversation and things are moving forward. And lastly, end with a sense of ownership. My biggest pet peeve about off-sites is that they could be where great ideas go to die. No, make sure whatever comes up with there's a clear owner, there's dates in which they're gonna follow up with whatever they've committed to doing, and it's going to be integrated into what's coming next in terms of. the working operations of the team. So make sure that you're offsite is really going to move the needle for folks. You've made very clear that being at the C-level is all about collaboration. Yet many executive teams struggle with alignment. How can they let aside egos and misalignment and turn the leadership team into a powerhouse? Well, if it was that easy, I wouldn't have a job, Santiago. you know, it's hard, it's hard, but it starts with building trust and having a shared purpose. Again, if you're only focused on your own function, you're gonna get silos. You know, they need to take a step back and think about what is the work that only we can do together as a leadership team. They need to find what winning looks like together, what the impact is on the business, and what those priorities will be. as leadership team, right? Not as their functional teams. It's an agreement towards a shared commitment. With generational diversity and hybrid work environments reshaping the workforce, how can leaders, senior leaders, adapt to the new ways of working? I have a whole keynote talk on this because it is top of mind for a lot of folks. And I have written several articles for Harvard Business Review about it because in my work, I'm working with senior leaders that are just, do not get some of the early career professionals like Gen Z and the younger millennials. And then I have Gen Z and the younger millennials that I'm teaching at NYU that have very different expectations about what work should be like. I had a student come up to me last semester and say, I really want to find a job professor for six months. If I could just find a job and be there for six months, that would be fantastic. And me, and I'll out myself as an older millennial, I'm like, you don't even know where the bathroom is after six months. What do mean you just want to be there for six months? You at least got to stay for a year, two years. And when I was coming out of school, was f****. five years before it was appropriate, if you will, to change jobs. But most folks that are younger generations, they want to be entrepreneurs. 90 % either want to have their own company or they have their own side gig. So the commitment to the organization is very different than some of the older generations that, you know, see the organization as this sense of loyalty and long-standing purpose and will work hard to get the job done. know, younger generations, they'll get up and leave at five o'clock, even if everyone else is heads down working on the project because the day's over. And it's not that they think they're doing anything wrong. There hasn't been agreements made to say, hey, we all stay until it's done. And those types of agreements need to be made in the onset when you're hiring people. So for leaders, I would say flexibility. People thrive in different environments. If you're gonna be hybrid and you're bringing people in person, Be very clear of what you're going to do in person and how you're gonna collaborate differently than what could be done. Virtually, you know people don't mind coming into the office if they think that it's worth it and it's worthwhile When they get annoyed if it's you're coming in and you know, everyone's doors closed and everyone's just on zoom calls That's like well, why am I here? Right? So perfect purpose purposeful communication flexibility and personalization So that really can make a difference in the way you lead your team Do you think that company culture has taken a dip after COVID? I think company culture has evolved after COVID. And so I don't think there's any right or wrong. think that there, you you need to be more purposeful into your company culture. You know, I talked about being mindful of the way you as a leader are showing up in the office. I worked with a senior leader of an advertising agency who was telling me that she didn't want to go to the office either. And I asked, okay, well, tell me what is it? that's keeping you from wanting to go into the office. I was curious. She's like, well, I just have all my meetings over Zoom anyway. And she's walking to the water cooler. I'm using that proverbial water cooler. Sending emails, walking back. She missed the opportunity to say, wow, I could be engaging the other members of my team. We could be having coffee chats. I could be getting to know them. We could be having development conversations. So I think. being really intentional about what you want your company culture to be and then putting the actions behind that can really change and transform. Because folks aren't all going to be in the office. It's not going to happen like maybe it did 10 years ago by osmosis because we're all there. You've got to make sure that you are showing up and you're putting the work in and you're being strategic and deliberate about how you're building your company culture. What do you think is going to happen when... Millennials and Gen Z reach the senior leadership that C-suite. Do you think that work as we know it today is going to fundamentally change? Or do you think that people when they reach a certain age they forget about their older dreams and they just do what they need to do? That is a big question and a little bit of a loaded question. So what do I think, let's break it down. What do I think is gonna happen with millennials and Gen Z get to the C-suite? I would say some older millennials are in the C-suite in some organizations. I think that it would be useful to have more diversity of thought in the C-suite, which a lot of baby boomers still are in the C-suite, right? And so thinking about how do you want to bring the organization along, infusing it with different thinking could be helpful. And then remind me, the second part of your question, asking? you said that gen Z, wanna have side gigs and have a different lifestyle do you think that these dreams at some point fade away Well, I would think some of them are founding our next corporations, right? And I don't know if you've read the book, Good to Great before, but a lot of those companies are no longer great, right? You need to continue to evolve, you need to continue to innovate. I think for Gen Z, they cross the board, you know, I'm making generalizations here, meaning and purpose. And so if you can create meaning and purpose for them, They'll be there. I think in a lot of organizations, when the older generations are still at the helm, it's more about you do the work because we're giving you a paycheck. And paycheck's not always enough. What is one leadership skill that will be non-negotiable for success in the next 10 years and why? When you say that, the first thought that comes to mind is resilience, because the speed of change is not going to decrease, right? There's a lot of technology coming out. There's gonna be increased uncertainty, and people are gonna have to adapt quickly. So as leaders, you need to lead with clarity and steadiness, and you have to build that internal capacity in both yourself and your teams to reset, reframe, and refocus, right? Shifting your mindset, as I said before, from judging to learning to curiosity. This is what happened. How can we move forward? How can we make the best of the situation? Let's do some rapid fire questions in 30 seconds or less. Number one, what's one thing an aspiring executive should start doing today to prepare for the C-suite? Yeah, start thinking beyond your function. Learn to connect your work to the broader business strategy. Number two, the biggest red flag that someone isn't ready for an executive role. Oof, can't delegate, Struggling to let go of the details. Number three, the number one leadership book you recommend. I really like Michael Watkins, The First 90 Days. It helps to reset as you navigate a transition. And every time you get a promotion, you change roles, even if it's in the same company, it's a reset. So read it again and remind yourself of what went well in your past roles, what didn't go so well, and how you're gonna approach the first 90 days, first 100 days in this new job. Four, if you could give one piece of advice to a new CEO, what would it be? Invest in building trust with your executive team. That's where alignment starts. number five? What is the most overrated leadership trend right now? Glowifying burnout, right? As this badge of honor. Real leadership is about sustainability and focus. Do you think that we'll still carry this grind culture too much from the leadership down? In certain pockets, yeah. I think that being busy or working yourself into exhaustion is not a state in which you can learn and thrive and do your best work. Kathryn, where can our listeners find you and learn more about your coaching programs and get in touch? Yeah, so I do a lot of one-on-one team coaching keynote speaking. Check out my website, katherlandisconsulting.com. I'd love to see you on LinkedIn. Please connect with me. It's just katherlandist. Search there. And I look forward to connecting and staying in touch. Kathryn, thank you so much for this insights pack conversation. I'm sure our listeners can take a lot of things away from it. And we hope that you have a lot of success and that you coach the new generation of leaders and see level that I love what you said about they are building the next generation of corporations. That was a great takeaway from me. Thanks a lot, Kathryn. Thanks, Santiago.