ProductiviTree: Cultivating Efficiency, Harvesting Joy

Stop People Pleasing, Start Leading with Chris Marr - Ep 29

• Santiago Tacoronte • Season 1 • Episode 29

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In this conversation, Chris Marr discusses the importance of authority in client relationships, emphasizing the detrimental effects of people-pleasing behaviors. He shares insights on how to navigate difficult conversations, the significance of constructive tension, and the need for professionals to assert their expertise without coming off as arrogant. Chris also introduces the People Pleaser's Path to Authority Assessment, which helps individuals recognize their tendencies and grow into more authoritative roles. The discussion culminates in practical advice for becoming a strategic partner to clients and recognizing when to part ways with unproductive relationships.

Takeaways

  • The strength of client relationships is dictated by difficult conversations.
  • People pleasing can hinder both personal and client success.
  • Feeling important in work leads to better client relationships.
  • The need to be liked can undermine respect in professional settings.
  • Most professionals are too busy to think strategically.
  • Setting the right tone and intention is crucial in client interactions.
  • Clients want confidence and expertise from their professionals.
  • Recognizing when to fire a client is essential for business health.
  • Over apologizing can damage professional credibility.
  • What's easy for you is hard for others, so value your expertise.

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Chris, welcome to Productivity. Hey Santiago, great to meet you, great to be here. Chris, your brand is about authority. How do you define people-pleasing in the context of client relationships? And what do mean with authority? Yeah. So people please and shows up for, the client relationship especially where, you know, like we're, I don't know, we're sweeping things under the carpet. We're not pointing out mistakes that our clients are making. We're staying silent, right? We tend to just like avoid difficult conversations. And so what I figured out is that there's actually an inverse relationship with the strength of the client relationship. A lot of people think that if I say that awkward thing or that difficult thing, I'm going to annoy. or frustrate my clients and they're going to want to not work with me anymore, like you're going to push them away. But what I figured out is actually that the number of difficult conversations you're willing to have with your client will actually dictate the strength of that relationship, right? So it actually galvanizes the relationship, right? I think you can look at that across even your personal life. The people that you're closest with, you've been through a lot together, right? And the same I think is true with their clients. And so I want people to realize that there need to be liked. this people pleasing is actually not only holding them back themselves from doing their best work, but is actually holding their clients back from getting their best work done as well. And so there's this spectrum, need to be liked, people pleasing on one side and this idea of like being authoritative or stepping into your authority on the other side. And what I'm doing, of course, in the work that I'm doing is trying to move people. I wish I could just, you know, put my hands in and like, drag them, the confidence out of them, but teach them and train them and give them the skills and the methods and the frameworks to move them along that spectrum, to really step into the authority. Ultimately, the outcome is that when they get onto, they get themselves into a client situation, let's say it's a difficult client situation where the stakes are high, that they actually feel confident, but they also feel like a peer in the room as well. And I think a lot of people who are coaches, consultants, Actually, honestly, if they were able to look at it objectively, it would probably be supplicants to the client. They wouldn't be true peers or above. So that's what I mean about people pleasing need to be liked and this idea of authority. It's not about power over. I think some people make that mistake when they talk about authority and think, are you just going to be like a dictator and shout at me all the time and tell me what to do? It's actually not that. It's about being authoritative. So being able to ask tough questions, being able to create tension, being able to stay calm and control and confident in difficult situations, right? To be able to work through problems. I think it shouldn't surprise us that when we're working with our clients, that they come to us with their problems because that's why they hired us. So if they come to you and they say, you know, Chris, we've been working together for six months. This doesn't seem like it's working anymore. We're not getting the results. Can you still facilitate a great conversation with the client, even when it feels like maybe they're directly attacking you in some way? But oftentimes we get defensive, right? We start to attack back. So hopefully that gives you a brush stroke of like just the navigating these different perspectives and the spectrum, how it shows up. need to be like authority, not about power over, not about being a dictator, but being able to be authoritative. In other words, have a grounded confidence in that you know what to do and that the client can trust you to work with them through the challenges and do our best work together. What was the turning point where you said um being the good guy and saying yes to everything and just saying yes sir, it's uh not the best way to manage relationships? Well, turning point I think, I can't think of a single point where it was multiple touch points I would say. I can think of many stories for example. I think one of them, and this might speak to people that are listening or watching this as well, is that I just didn't feel good. I was unhappy. I felt like I was being taken advantage of. The relationships felt transactional. I was more of a doer and an order taker. I didn't like that. I never wanted to be that. want to be like more, I want to feel important in the work that we're doing in a healthy way. Like I felt like I wanted to feel like a strategic partner in the work that we're doing, but instead I'm like writing your blog articles and writing your emails. And it's like, okay, that stuff's important, but I'm not involved at that strategic level. so I think generally speaking, over the years with my client relationships, if I felt like I was being coming in more a supplicant level, it didn't always feel great to me. It didn't feel like I was actually getting to do my best work in those circumstances. So that's certainly one sense of it for me, a feeling you could say. But there's also times where like, you know, I've just, I don't know, I made a mistake or I've tried to, when I'm working with a client, I'll give you one example. A client said to me, And this was on the other side of actually, feel like I'd grown a lot by this time. A client said to me, hey Chris, we've spent all this money with you, we're not happy. uh We want you to do this really expensive job for free. My people pleasing tendencies in the past would have been, you're absolutely right. We need to make this right. I'll get the team rallied around this. We'll do this web project for free, that sort of thing. And I think that in the past I would have done that. I would have done more to make the client feel good. But what I've realized is actually really my job is to, don't know how you feel. It's not up to me to figure out how to make you feel good. um but I didn't feel like we'd made any mistakes. So I was able to actually go back to the client there and say, actually, that's not what's going to happen here. If there's a problem with the results you're getting with the work that we're doing, let's talk about that. But if you want that job done there, you will have to pay for it. And because I'm not going to the team to convince them to do work for, why would I do, I'm not going to do that. And so I think for me, it's just like over time, Santiago just... it's interesting they ask this question because it is about personal growth if you really think about it. Do I feel more confident in myself? And that's about who do I want to be in the world? I think if you look at anybody that, if you look at someone, I guess it's a good kind goes back to the question you asked before, which is like if a people pleaser is generally someone who changes who they are based on who they're with, right? So if I'm with you, I'm someone different, if I'm with someone. I change who I am based on what I think you want me to be. But someone who's not a people pleaser, someone that you respect, is someone who has like an inner set of values that they turn up in the world in. And so the opposite would be, you know exactly who this person's going to be, even if you don't like them, you can respect them for how they turn up in the world because they're not a people pleaser. They're not changing who they are for other people. And I think for me, and I know that for other people as well, it's like there's this personal growth in all of it. In other words, it's an internal job you're doing to figure out who you want to be in this world. So it's hard to pinpoint a specific moment other than I would say, specifically I would say over the last eight to 10 years, there's just been a lot of personal growth for me. Is the need to be liked something that we learn with the job? Or it's something that is wired in humans? I want to be liked. I to be seen as a nice guy. Yeah. Ultimately, I mean, this is the thing. Like if you're working with our clients and you lead with the need to be liked, what you risk is never being respected. But if you lead with like this idea of being respected for your expertise, okay, you might not be liked as much, but it could very well much, like it could lead to still being liked. In other words, your need to be liked risks you never being respected. And that's the problem. It's just getting them in the right order. Like we're all human, Santiago, right? Like I want to be liked from a human perspective, but bringing that to the client relationship is actually damaging. So it's just getting them in the right order, I think that's all it is. So it is a human thing, but it's also a cultural thing. Like in Scotland here, for example, people will shoot you down if you start like talking about how amazing you are, right? It's like there's a tall poppy syndrome, I think in some cultures. Some cultures, when we were growing up, we were told that children should be seen and not heard. We were almost trained to make ourselves smaller. And what we're saying is, is when you come into your client relationships, clients don't want, they want someone who's, they want to feel confident with the person you're working with. They don't want to feel more doubtful. They want confidence. Your confidence and your commitment as a client facing professional. your confidence, commitment to your expertise and your ideas is actually what your client wants from you. They want to feel confident about it. So if you turn up and you're kind of hedging and you're kind of weak around, maybe you could do this or maybe you could do that. Like you're not sure of yourself. It doesn't really breed confidence in your client. I think there's one final thing though, when it comes to the need to be liked with client facing professionals, account managers, coaches, consultants. is that in their role, well number one is the organization sets them up to be people pleasers. So account managers are a good example of that. Make sure the client's happy, don't lose the client, we can't risk the relationship, your churn's already up, we've got a retention problem. In other words, they can't take any risk at all. So if they try to push back on the client or try to ask the client difficult questions, It's too much of a risk and so because there's too much of a risk in challenging the relationship, they end up just pulling right back from authority and back into people pleasing mode. So I think those are the factors I certainly think of. You have something called uh a Pleaser's Path to Authority Assessment. um What is people more surprised when they take it? What is an aha moment that they say, God. Right. So the whole reason we created the People Pleasers Pass to Authority was exactly for that reason. Because I'll ask, well, I'm not going to ask people outright, but people don't tend to go around admitting to people that they're a people pleaser. It's not exactly known as a of like a virtuous trait, right? So we had to create an assessment that would actually shine a light on the problem. And so what we were trying to do with the assessment was help people see where that gap is because I don't know that most people don't know what it is. For whatever reason, not self aware enough about it or they would just never think of themselves as a people pleaser. Some people do, but we're struggling with this a little bit. So we created the assessment to try and shine a light on where the gaps are. So the whole idea of the assessment is the higher the score, the higher the level of people pleasing, right? And so, yeah, we... It was great to see, mean, it's hard to say we've had thousands of people visit that, em that assessment and the results are all over the place, right? But most people are more of a people pleaser than they think they are. They've got gaps that they can't see. um There's so many examples in my clients as well, Santiago, where like, they were like, I didn't realize that... that's me people pleasing, you know, they didn't see it like that. So I think it's more hard to detect than people think it is until we shine a light on it or we push on that area or whatever it might be, whether it's discounting your services or customizing your proposals or, you know, not pointing out the mistakes that your client or clients making or whatever it might be. shows up all over. I think there's just such a scattered result from all of that. um But the great thing is though, is that people are starting to see more clearly where their people pleasing tendencies are, which ultimately helps us to help them. What is one behavior professionals think is helpful that actually destroys client trust? Oh, that's such a good question. Oh, you know the first thing that came to mind for me there was apologizing. Yeah, a behavior. Right, the first thing that comes to mind here is when mistakes happen. So let's say you're in an agency and your agency team make a mistake. They miss a deadline, a quality issue, something like that. Or it could be on the other way around that the client makes a mistake or whatever it is. What we tend to do is we tend to fall on our own sword immediately. And I think it looks weak and it doesn't fill people with confidence. In other words, you I don't want to work with someone who is just going to be a wet bag and fall on their own sword as soon as something goes wrong. So I think there's just these things that we mean well, right, we mean well, we're apologizing, over apologizing for things that have gone wrong, but actually just doesn't look good on us at all. It makes us look weak and lacking confidence. So I would say that that's one thing that springs to mind for me. Chris, you promote the idea of constructive tension. What does it look like in practice? Can you give us an example? attention. Yeah. those are examples of this. So let's say, for example, I'll give you a simple one and maybe a more complex one. So a simple example, you're talking about creating tension deliberately, proactively in the client relationship. Is that right? Constructive tension, it's a concept. Yeah, Yeah, yeah. Okay. So, for example, um let's say we're in the sales process and I'm the coach, the consultant, and I'm working with a prospect. I might say something like, based on what you know and understand about the culture and your organization, what could be a reason why we might fail with this work that we're doing together? Okay. So I want to invite you with a mirror. to see where you and your organization culturally might get in the way of our version of success. To me, that's tension. The client's not expecting me to ask something like that. Let's go to the other end of the spectrum. Let's say we're in a conversation where you're not happy. You're like, I'm thinking that maybe this isn't working anymore, Chris. think we might have to cancel our contract or downgrade our contract or whatever, change the services. Something that's not good, right? some sort of churn or retention conversation. And I might say after, obviously the dynamic of the relationship needs to be there, it needs to be the right time and all the rest of it, but I might invite a question like, you know, I can fully see and understand where we have dropped the ball here. I want you to reflect for a second here as well. Where do you feel like your team have dropped the ball? So that's examples of where constructive tension, what is this relationship, when you think about tension, it's like, is this relationship going to be strong enough for us to do our best work together? Are we actually going to be able to work through problems together? So for example, tension might look like me telling you what accountability looks like. So I'm not going to be chasing you up. I'm not going to be every week chasing you up for your work, okay? you need something from me or you're going to miss a deadline, you have to come to me and tell me. And if I don't hear from you, I'll just assume that everything is going to plan. Does that sound like something we can agree on? I feel like all of the things I do are almost deliberately and proactively creating tension to see if we've got the stuff. Has this relationship got the potential to do the work that we need to do? So I love the idea of constructive tension. I think we should do a lot more of it. Does that help? does. give you some ideas? What would you say to someone who fears losing a client just because the client sets a boundary or push back on something? So what would I say? So read that, give me that question one more time. What would you say to someone that is losing fear, a client, because a client is pushing back on something and the temptation is to say, well, yes, we will accommodate your request or demands. Yeah. So this is where I would start to, I always want to raise the stakes in a situation like this. I think it comes back to your constructive tension, which I just raised the stakes, which means make it feel more important. So if a client comes to me, I'm trying to interpret what like what these situations might be. But if a client comes to you and says, Hey, Hey Chris, we want to stop doing this and we want to do this instead. And you're like, Oh, but If I push back on the client here, they're just going to go to another agency or go somewhere else and get it done. But actually I would want the relationship to be able to withhold that and say something like, so where did this decision come from? Is to convince me that this thing is more important than that. Right? So if we change this, means that we're to have to change the whole account. Have we got the time for that? So I think I would push back on the client oftentimes and get them to convince me otherwise. But I think there's a technique here. that's really important for when you get pushback from any client is that there's a natural tendency to want to explain what that is. So the client comes to you with something, some pushback or resistance. We're not going to do that anymore. We want to change this. Your job is not to explain it away. Your job is to get them to talk about it. So what makes you say that? What's changed? Well, that's interesting. Why are we deciding to go down that road? And so there's this, what we call a question first approach. It's actually called like a confident comeback. The idea is that you can take their pushback or resistance and turn it back on them in the blink of an eye. This ability to really disarm any pushback that a client gives you. so, but you're right to say afraid. In other words, the client facing professional account manager, coach consultant is afraid to risk the relationship. And so what they do is they talk a lot instead, thinking that that's helping. But actually, the technique here, the method is to put it back on them, is to delegate the pushback and the resistance back to the client by repeating it back to them. Oh, you think it's too expensive. Why, what makes you say that? Oh, you want to change direction. How come? You know, it's like everything's back to the client. I hope that makes sense. How can someone, a consultant or someone at this client facing move from being seen as a helper, service to become a strategic partner? Right, well that's a big question. So I think first of all is like, here's some tactical things that come to mind. Number one is job title. Like you've got to watch what your, how your positions, right? So job title and uh credibility. So let's say Santiago that I'm, you're going to be the account manager for a client that I just sold, right? How I introduce you to the client, how I edify you is really important. I'm going introduce you to Santiago, he's going to be your account manager, you'll meet him on Monday. Right, I know what an account manager is, fine, whatever. Am I going to go to the call? Who cares? Right, so I'm going to introduce you to Santiago. Santiago has been with the company for 12 years, he has literally worked with hundreds of clients just like you to help you increase your traffic profits and your sales in your company. He is going to meet you on Monday, and the reason this call is important, do see where going? there's this idea of edifying the people around us. So first of all, it's all about perspective and positioning, right? We want to position people. First of all, I think that's important. Now, if you're listening to this podcast, you could do this yourself, right? Give everyone around you the ability to talk about you so that they can position you at the right level. So those are the sort of tactical things that come to mind. The other thing that comes to mind as well is like, well, let's be honest, right? Number one is most people are too busy. So if you're an account manager or client facing professional, you've probably got too many clients. You've got too many clients and that means that you don't have even time to think strategically, nevermind do anything strategically for your clients. So the first thing is you've got to create space so you can actually think and have good ideas and then turn up confidently as a strategic partner. It all comes down to... Can you bring good ideas to the table? Can you ask really great questions? Can you position yourself as a strategic partner? It's all about confidence. It's all about how you turn up. But I would say Santiago, key here is, and I don't think this goes under the radar a little bit, it's all about the set up. It's all about how you set it up from the beginning. Because there's one thing I know for sure is that it's very, very difficult, if not impossible, to change someone's opinion about you once they've already got it. It's very difficult for an account manager to become a strategic partner with a client that they've been working with for five years when they've seen them as the person that's the helper, the doer, the order taker. So the key is you've got to set the conditions and the perspective from the start. So that's like everything I've just said, positioning yourself as that strategic partner from the beginning. And the great thing about that is that every new client is another opportunity to do it better than the last. And that's what I think is the opportunity for us all. It's all about positioning, it's all about perspective, it's all about messaging evening as well. But ultimately, yeah, I think that's what, that's my take. Chris, when is time to fire a client? When and what are the signs that it's time to walk away? Well, wow, yes. there's lots of signs, I think. One would be that the client is taking up more time than they're paying for, right? So that's actually costing you money to service the client. The other one would be that they're not willing to give a certain amount of information to you to allow you to do your job. They're blocking you at certain places. They're not following or taking your guidance. They're mistreating you. Ultimately, we treat... We teach people how to treat us. So we've taught them that they can mistreat us somehow. Lack of boundaries. God, we could go on and on, right? There's like bad behaviors essentially within clients, what that might look like. But the key thing here is, that we have to accept that we've allowed this to happen. There's gotta be ownership within the agency to say, we've somehow allowed the client to behave like, we let them, we sent them an agreement and they signed it and we accepted it. So, you know, some of it's on us, but... um Yeah, I think it's really important to recognize when something's not working. And I think if you want to step into this authoritative position, I, hey, I know where I would rather be. I would rather be the client facing professional telling the client that this isn't working than the client coming to me and telling me it isn't working because one looks like an expert and one doesn't. If I'm the expert and I know how this is supposed to look and what we're supposed to be doing and what good looks like or what great looks like or what world class looks like, then I should be the one that's saying, this doesn't look good anymore. This isn't working. Let's talk about it. But oftentimes it's the client that's doing that. And I don't think that's a good look for us if we want to be seen as experts or strategic partners. So yeah, I think about these things a lot. I've had to address this many times and it really, honestly, Santiago, it's not complicated. The truth is, is like, if I think things aren't going well, the client probably has a really good ... sense of it in some of their own ways as well. And really it's all about having a conversation. So I have some concerns. Let's get on a call and let's talk about it. Let's see where it goes with the intention that if we can fix some of this stuff, I think we could do great work. But if we're not willing to change these things, then I think we should probably part ways before we waste any more time. It's business. It's like, this is the conversations that we need to be having earlier than we probably are at the moment. Oftentimes I think the people pleaser comes out and us, we're sweeping this sort of stuff under the carpet thinking that, oh, you know, it's not too bad. It's not as bad as the other client. You know, maybe if we ignore it, it'll go away. Hmm. Yes. No, it doesn't happen like that. know? Chris, what is it? What, what tone or language should people use to assert authority without sounding arrogant? I do understand sometimes it can be a thin line between the two of them, them overconfidence, arrogance. What's your advice to, yeah, be able to have these crucial conversations without sounding like, this guy, it's a bit of a, you know, Yeah, totally get it. The word that comes to mind here is intention. Okay. So what's your intention? Right. And the reason I say that is because I really do care about my clients. You know, I clear out, care about their success. I care about their wellbeing. I care about the results they're trying to get. It's not about me. And there is a problem when I care more about than the client does. But ultimately if you can filter and this, I think it's Right, there's a thin line and we need to know how to walk that thin line. There's one dynamic, there's one factor that will determine how fine that line is and that is the relationship between the two of you. Right, if you've got a strong relationship the line's a bit thicker. Right, you've got a bit more room to move around in, I think. So I think intention, does it come from a place of caring? Right? And does it come from a place where I want you to succeed? And so if that's all true, then my hope would be that the way that you say it sounds like that. And you could literally say it. So, hey look, Santiago, I know that you want to be successful. I know that this project means a lot to you. Right now though, what I'm seeing is that if we continue the way we're going right now, we're going to absolutely miss the deadline and we're already over budget. Okay? So what I want to understand is how can I help you? How can we work together to fix this? So it comes from a place of caring. It comes from a place of what I know that you want, that you want to succeed. Just an example of how you can verbalize your intention. So it comes from a place of like high caring. Otherwise it does come across as aggressive or obnoxious. Hey, because Santiago, like you suck at this. You should never have been appointed to this project. We're over budget and we're running out of time. And so, you know, if you don't get your act together, I don't see you being here much longer. So like that's aggressive. It doesn't sound nice. It doesn't give you any, there's no, I'm not lifting you up. I'm not empowering you. I'm not helping you at all. I've just punched you in the gut. What is worse for your authority? Undercharging or over delivering? So repeat that question? Oh, all right. undercharging or over delivering? undercharging. 100 % because experts are expensive. You should feel like you went because when people pay for things and it's cheap, they don't respect it. When they pay for something and it feels a little bit painful, they're going to turn up. They're going to do the work. They're going to extract much more value from it if not as much value as they can. I'm happy to over deliver for clients that are getting results. Why am I one of my absolute, like I try not to get frustrated, but the one thing that frustrates me the most is that I'm turning up, I'm doing my piece, but the client isn't doing theirs. That sucks. That's horrible. And so, you know, I would rather the client was clipping at my heels because I'm outpacing them with some like on in the work or whatever, or keeping a faster pace than them or over delivering as you might say, but they're actually paying the correct fee for it. Let's do some rapid fire questions. Number one, what is the biggest red flag in a client? The biggest red flag in a client is that they don't have any customers. They don't have any good customers. In other words, they don't have any money. Number two, one book every client facing professional should read besides your own, of course. I would say I've got so many books around me. I would say the book that I love the most for like the one that I'd recommend to my clients would be The Business of Expertise by David C. Baker. Number three, worst piece of advice you've heard about client satisfaction. worst piece of advice I've heard about client satisfaction. don't know if I've had a worse piece of advice, but I would say the worst assumption you could make is actually making any assumption about how the client is experiencing your services. So I'd say it's not necessarily the worst piece of advice, but don't guess what their experience is. Ask them. I would say that that's the best way I can answer that question, I think. Four, what is your go-to phrase when you need to shut down scope creep? When I need to shut down scope creep in it is, Santiago, can I just, what's Santiago, can I just stop you there for a second? I feel like we're getting way off track here. That would be my favorite phrase. Stop people right in the moment before it gets out of hand. Yeah. At number five, what is the most damaging myth about professionalism? Oh god. That you have to, like there's some, that there's a version of it. That professionalism is this avatar. I think that's the myth. The myth is like that it's a, that you can describe it or something like that. There's only one version of it. I hate that. Well, look at me. I wear a hat. I've got, you know what mean? I don't wear a shirt and tie. I'm never going to wear a shirt and tie. I've got Nikes on. Like this is how I'd be on a stage, you know? I think that to me hurts people. Right back to what we started with, people that are people pleasers and have a need to be liked will dress and turn up and be in certain ways that they think are acceptable for what they're doing instead of what they really need to do. What makes them unique and valuable and attractive is being themselves. That to me is a sad story. about professionalism. Chris, what is one thing that you want listeners to walk away with about authority and working with clients? Your clients want someone who is confident in their own expertise and authority. Give them that gift. Even if you have to pretend to be and turn up like that, that's what they want. It rubs off on them. So please step into your authority, appreciate this. I would say it's until I go that what's easy for you is difficult for others. What you enjoy is hard for us and they dislike it. So just because something's easy and obvious for you to do doesn't mean that it shouldn't be, like you shouldn't be paid well for it. Right? I think that's really important. Like be yourself, like, share the way that you think with the world, with your clients and don't think that it needs to be hard and difficult and complex to get paid well for something because ultimately people, we're all different, right? What's easy for me is hard for other people. I get paid well for it. very good advice. Chris, two things. Tell us about the assessment. Where can people go and get the people pleaser's assessment? Right, sure. The assessment, dead easy to find two places, theauthoritativecoach.com, the website. um And if you're on Instagram, just message me there, assessment, and I'll send it to you. Dead easy. Same with the book, right? The book, theauthoritativecoach.com, you'll find the book there on any Amazon store, Become an Authoritative Coach by Chris Marr. And if you message me book on Instagram, I'll send it to you as well. Yeah, dead easy to find. Chris, thank you so much for uh this conversation packed with actions. um I have learned a lot of things from you today. uh But if I will take one away, probably is that you need to be yourself and authentic and value your expertise and knowledge and be brave to tell people what you think that will make them successful. from a point of caring, not from a point of I'm smarter than you or you have no clue about what you're doing is I'm willing to help you. And this is a very valuable message. And I think it works only, not only on client facing relationships, but in life in general. Yeah, 100%. Love that. Love that takeaway. That's awesome, Santiago. It's been great. Thanks for having me. Thank you so much, Trace, and talk to you soon.