ProductiviTree: Cultivating Efficiency, Harvesting Joy

Are you doing too much to be happy? With Dr. Ryan Gottfredson Ep32

• Santiago Tacoronte • Season 2 • Episode 32

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In this conversation, Ryan Gottfredson discusses the evolution of leadership research, emphasizing the importance of vertical development and the shift from a focus on doing to being. He highlights the significance of mindsets in leadership effectiveness and the need for leaders to heal and grow. The discussion also covers the impact of purpose on leadership, the role of internal operating systems, and the importance of measuring life in organizations. Gottfredson provides insights into common mindset blocks and offers practical advice for leaders seeking to enhance their effectiveness.

Takeaways

  • Leadership research has evolved from focusing on behaviors to understanding the neuroscience of leadership.
  • Vertical development emphasizes the importance of the 'being' side of leadership over the 'doing' side.
  • Most leaders operate in a high doing, low being quadrant, which can lead to burnout and disengagement.
  • Mindsets play a crucial role in determining leadership effectiveness and personal growth.
  • Healing past traumas can significantly impact a leader's ability to grow and lead effectively.
  • Organizations that prioritize purpose over numbers tend to have more engaged and productive teams.
  • Burnout is often a result of disconnection from a value-creating purpose, not just overwork.
  • Transformational leaders focus on creating value for others rather than just achieving results.
  • Self-awareness is the first step towards improving one's leadership capabilities.
  • Measuring 'life in the system' can provide insights into organizational health and leadership effectiveness.



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Ryan, welcome to ProductiviTree oh Hey, thanks for having me on and thanks for creating such a great podcast so that people like me can share some great ideas. I'm looking forward to our conversation. Thank you. Ryan, you've worked with leaders globally and written bestselling books on mindset. What triggered your obsession with leadership, mindset and vertical development? Yeah, so I did my PhD at Indiana University in organizational behavior and my dissertation was on leadership. And this is great because it got me to review the last 70 years of leadership research. And one of my primary takeaways from doing this literature review was that really there's one primary question that has been asked and answered in the leadership space. And that question is, what do leaders need to do to be effective? And I think that's a good question. And I think it's led to some good answers. But I also feel like that question is misguided in a way, because I don't believe that leadership level is about becoming somebody that to follow. And so that's been the impetus of my focus of all of my research. And and all of my consulting is how do we tap into the being side of leadership? You just said that you studied 70 years of leadership. Wow. That's an impressive milestone. How has leadership changed in that last 70 years? It's not a lot for humanity, but it's a sizable period. Yeah, in many ways, I don't think that there was much change. So leadership research first came about really in the 1950s. Now, leadership had been studied a little bit before then, but in terms of kind of a rigorous field of study, it appeared in the 1950s. And really from the 1950s up until about 2010, the primary focus has really been on different types of leadership behaviors. All right, so we've got different types of behaviors. You've probably heard of transformational leadership, charismatic leadership, servant leadership, right? They're studying, what are the, and when we look at these leadership through these lenses, it's all about what do I need to do to be a servant leader? What do I need to do to be a transformational leader? But there's been something that has changed since about 2010. So over the last 15 years, we're getting a change in the leadership space where we're moving away from a focus on behaviors. And what we're starting to move into more and more is actually the neuroscience of leadership development. Meaning that what we've learned is that how leaders operate is much more about how their body is wired than the knowledge and the skills that they have. Can you tell us a little bit about vertical development and how is it different from traditional models that most companies still follow? Yeah. And these terms are fairly new. So if you haven't heard of horizontal and vertical development, that's fine. But let me kind of put it into context is we have two different sides of ourselves. We've got what's called our doing side. And if you think about maybe an X and a Y axis, we've got our doing side on our X axis and our doing side is about the level of our talent, knowledge, skills and abilities. So horizontal development is development along this X axis. It's improving our talent, knowledge, skills, and abilities. And quite frankly, this is where 95, if not more percent of all of our development efforts focus on. You think about our education systems, our athletic programs, and our organizational development efforts. It's almost all about gaining new knowledge and new skills. But I don't know about you Santiago. Let me ask you this question. Have you ever worked with a leader? who is incredibly knowledgeable and skillful, but micromanaged you? Many thanks. Yeah, we've been there, right? So what that says is that they are really far out here on their doing side, but because they are micromanaging, that's a big signal that they're lower on this Y axis or this vertical axis. And, and this side is what we call our being side. And our being side is the quality and sophistication of our body's internal operating system. And so when we improve along our being side, that's what's called vertical development. And so when we've got a leader who's micromanaging us, that's a signal that they're wiring in their body. They're wired more for self protection because they don't trust the people that they lead for whatever reason. And so they're wired more for self protection than for value creation. So vertical development is making that shift, helping us to become more wired for value creation. as opposed to self protection. When did you first realize that more credentials and more doing was not the answer? I learned this lesson the hard way. So as I mentioned, I did my PhD at Indiana University. I took a job at Cal State Fullerton. And I was there at Cal State Fullerton for two years. And then I decided to take a leave of absence where I worked with a consulting company called Gallup, which focuses on employee engagement. And I got into this company. And I was there for 10 months. Quite frankly, I kind of felt like I was pigeonholed into a position that was more narrow than what I wanted and I had been Complaining to my manager about this, you know I want more and bigger opportunities and I was on the phone with her one day and I was kind of complaining to her about my situation and she stopped me she said Ryan This clearly isn't working. We're gonna have to let you go and I just got fired. And I never thought that I would get fired. um And so this was, I I felt like this was a huge blow to myself, to my ego, to even to like my future. And so I was, this hurt, this stung. And I was left having to kind of process this. Why is it that I got fired? Because here's what I know, is I know that I had the knowledge and skills to be successful. I had the doing side to be successful. And this getting fired was a wake up call. And it helped me or it gave me the reason to start to evaluate my being side. And as I started to evaluate my being side, and I primarily did that by focusing on my mindsets, uh what I realized is that I didn't have very high quality mindsets. You And so now I can now look back on that situation. And while I hated getting fired, it may have been the best thing for me because there was a total wake up call that helped me awake into my being side, helped me to learn that my internal operating system was not wired for the success that I was seeking. And then I could go about doing the work of elevating my mindsets and upgrading along my being side. So it was a hard lesson to learn, but I'm grateful I learned it for sure. You said that most people are stuck on the doing better on that access. um How can get people out of this status that sounds, it feels productive perhaps, but it's definitely not transformative. Yeah, which is so what's interesting about this? So if we take a kind of explain, we've got an x-axis, that's our doing side, we've got a y-axis, that's our being side. And if we create four quadrants, so low, low, low, high, high, low, high, high, right, we got these quadrants. Well, what we find, what researchers found is that most adults, most people operate in the low, low quadrant, low doing, low being side. That doesn't mean that they're bad people. They're just not the most dynamic individuals. uh When we look in organizations, particularly at business leaders, what we find is that 85 % of business leaders operate in high doing, low being. And that's a large percentage, but it shouldn't surprise us because how do leaders get promoted into leadership? Usually the people who get promoted is... the people that can get stuff done in the best way possible. And so what I find is that most leaders in organizations operate, I'm gonna call it, I don't know if you've ever, Santiago, have you ever driven a manual transmission car? Right? So if we've got a car that's five gears or five speeds, I compare most leaders operate in fourth gear. Now, fourth gear is a lot of fun because you could go really fast in fourth gear And when you're going fast, the RPMs are quite high so you can feel the speed. And feeling the speed is quite addictive for leaders. But fourth gear is not the most optimal gear to operate from. The most optimal gear is fifth gear. But there's an inherent challenge of going from fourth gear to fifth gear. Is if I wanna shift from fourth gear into fifth gear, the first thing I need to do is I need to let my foot off of the gas. I stick in the clutch and I shifted into fifth gear. And that idea of taking our foot off of the gas, even momentarily, feels super scary for most leaders. And so most leaders continue cranking along, pedal to the metal in fourth gear, and it's, they're feeling that speed. And while they could get a lot of stuff done, generally what happens is they're burning out the people around them. uh And that's what I most commonly find in organizations. Can you take us through the concept of internal OS operating system and upgrading it? What will it take to upgrade leaders operating system? Yeah, let me, I'm gonna, Santiago, I'm gonna put you on the spot. I'm gonna give you four different desires, and I want you to tell me if you think society says these are good or bad desires. Is that okay? Okay, so here's the desires. A desire to look good, be right, avoid problems, and get ahead. What do you think? Does society say these are good or bad? You mean the four fell together? I would say this society will think it's good. Yeah, I think so too because who likes to look bad, be wrong, have problems or get passed up? Nobody really. Right? So, but here's another question for you. When we have these desires, where's our focus? on fulfilling them. Yeah, and it's on ourselves, right? I want to look good. I want to be right. I want to avoid problems. I want to get ahead. And so these desires are the natural desires that people have. And they're not inherently bad. I'm never going to call them bad. But if we have these desires, which are a part of our wiring, they hold us back from creating value in the long term. So these desires are short-term self-protective desires which are driven by what I call self-protective mindsets. But there are better desires and better mindsets to have. Such as, instead of a desire to look good, it's better to have a desire to learn and grow. Which means, if I want to learn and grow, I've got to be willing to look bad at times. If I have a desire to be right, It's better to have a desire to find truth. If there's a desire to avoid problems, it's better to have a desire to fulfill a purpose. And if I have instead of a desire to stand out, I want to have a desire to create value for the people around me or to lift others. And the tricky thing about this is, for example, if I want to lift others, I've got to be willing to put myself on the back burner at times. And what dictates which way we lean either towards our self protective needs or towards these value creating desires really is contingent upon the quality of our internal operating system. Which way is our body wired to lean, particularly in performance context? very much so. Ryan, if you have an imbalance between doing and being, can this lead you into trouble? Well, I think it can when our doing is high and our being is low, right? And I kind of explained that most leaders operate from that space. And unfortunately, that's just not great for leadership success. Now let's take it the opposite. Is there anything bad with being high being low doing? Well, I'm not gonna say there's anything bad with that, but we might limit ourselves in terms of the space that we could play within, right? So for example, I would consider a monk to be high being low doing generally, right? There's always gonna be exceptions to that, right? Monks are very emotionally regulated. They are very wise, right? I would go for them, go to them for matters of life, but maybe I wouldn't go to them for matters of business, right? So I think a monk, for example, can be extremely influential, uh but they're not gonna be influential in all spheres. And so that's what limits us when we're lower on the doing side is just simply what spheres are we able to have an influence in. The broader our skill set, the greater the skills that are, the spheres that we can influence. What are some red flags that someone needs to match into the doing axis? Well, when I work with leaders, particularly executive teams, I will always ask them one question that helps me get a sense of where they operate on their being side altitude. And that question is, how do you measure success? Now, what I get from most leaders, how they answer this question is in some form of number or percentage. For example, I commonly hear groups say 10 % growth year over year. And that's not, I'm not going to say that that's bad, but it's revealing of what gear that they're operating in. That reveals to me that they're operating in fourth gear. Now, when I ask leaders who operate in that fifth gear, how they measure success in their business, what they generally talk to me about is their purpose and how they create value for their stakeholders. And when I hear that, I know that they're operating at a higher level than most leaders. Ryan, m I want to go back to your comment about people that get promoted are those that are very good at doing, on the doing axis, right? This is a traditional thing. This guy get things done. And this is the people that is trusted and this is the people that receive the promotions. And I need to ask you, is it worth investing in being if success is today? And I think you said 90 % on doing? Yes, and it all comes down to are we more focused on short-term success or long-term success? Because if we want short-term success, it's better to focus on the doing side. But that can cripple us when it comes to long-term success. Let me give you an example of this. I've been working with, in the past I will say, I've worked with an executive team and they had continually promoted a guy who was head of sales up into now he's on the executive team over the sales group. And the reason why he's on the executive team is he has brought in way more revenue to the business than anybody else in the company by multiples. So he has been incredibly valuable to the company. But, and that's his doing side, right? He's great at sales. but at the same time, he has been accused of sexual harassment multiple times in the organization. And that says something about his being side. And what's interesting, I've kind of been at a distance curious, how is this executive team going to deal with this individual? And I would say, unfortunately to my knowledge, that individual is still in the company. Well, why is that? Well, it's because the leaders of that company They value the short-term gains that he can bring as opposed to the long-term consequences that he can bring. And that's, you know, I'm just not sure they're making the right decision there. Brian, most people think that burnout comes from doing too much, too many hours, too much work. Do you think that they could be also a burnout caused because of being out of alignment, out of the being axis? for sure, right? So because what research has learned or what researchers have learned is that burnout has very little to do with the number of hours we spend on the job. Burnout has much more to do with our disconnection from a value creating purpose. Because here's the thing is if we believe that our work is creating value in the lives of others, we're gonna work long and hard and we're gonna get energized from it. But if we don't see that our work is connected to creating value for others, when we lurk long and hard, it's going to deplete our energy. And so when we, I think this is valuable for leaders to understand because if we wanna get the most out of our people, if we want our people to be energized and continually energized, we've gotta lead through purpose as opposed to through results. And that's the big difference between kind of these uh gear four leaders or speed four leaders and speed five leaders. uh But the cool thing is, is we can study these fifth gear leaders, right? These are leaders like Satya Nadella at Microsoft, Alan Mulally at Ford, Mary Barrett at GM, uh Ed Catmull at Pixar. uh These are leaders who have had a transformational effect on their organizations and their industries and why is that it has so much to do so much less to do with their doing side and So much more to do with their being side So if we want to have a transformational impact on the groups that we lead we've got to focus on our being side Because here's what I've learned our being side altitude sets the ceiling for the groups and the organizations that we lead. The only way for our groups and our organizations to elevate in their effectiveness and their success is to first elevate the leaders. And if we can do that, it's going to have a transformational impact on the groups and organizations. You've identified four core mindsets that drive success or failure. Can you walk us through them? Yeah, we kind of talked a little bit about those. I I labeled them explicitly. So let's do that now. So the four sets, what I found is these four sets are not my good ideas. These four sets of mindsets are the summary of the last 50 years of mindset research across psychology, education, management and marketing. And I've just simply brought them together into a framework. And so these four sets of mindsets, they all identify a continuum. that ranges from self-protection to value creation. So the most uh well-known set of mindsets is the difference between a fixed mindset, which is self-protective, and a growth mindset. And just to connect it back to what we talked about earlier, that's this desire to look good versus the desire to learn and grow. So that's the first set. Second set is closed to open. Third set is prevention to promotion. And then the fourth set is inward to outward. How would you like to dive into that further? Or do you have any follow-up questions there, Santiago? Just give us an example of each one of them, that'll be great. Yeah, perfect. So uh what I find is that leaders that have more of a fixed mindset, they have this desire to look good. So they have a tendency to hold on to what's worked in the past and they avoid learning zone challenges. So what I've and what I found is just for context, I have a free mindset assessment on my website. So if you want to take it, it's ryangotforson.com. You could take this mindset assessment to awaken to the quality of your mindsets. And what I've found is that in organizations, 60 % of leaders have more of a fixed mindset than a growth mindset. And so that means that most leaders avoid learning zone challenges and they tend to hold on to what's worked in the past. So that's fixed and growth. uh Closed and open is when we have a closed mindset, we generally see ourselves as an expert. Therefore we kind of think we know what is best But people with an open mindset they may know a lot but they believe that they don't have all the answers and so there they seek after truth and so I imagine you we could all kind of relate to People that we've worked with who have been closed-minded versus open-minded The third set prevention to promotion when we have a prevention mindset, we're kind of what we're wired to avoid problems as opposed to achieve a purpose. uh So let me give you an analogy, because I do a decent amount of work in the healthcare industry. And one of the analogies that I think is helpful here is doctors can be focused on multiple things, but I'll give you two options here. One doctor can be focused on avoiding disease, and another doctor can be focused on ensuring health. And those are very different things. One is more of a prevention mindset, one is more of a promotion mindset. And that, their focus is gonna shape the quality of their work. So that's prevention to promotion. The difference between inward and outward is when we have an inward mindset, we see ourselves as more important than others. And when we see ourselves as more important than others, we have a tendency to see others as objects. But when we have an outward mindset, we see others as being just as important as ourselves, which allows us to see them as people and we value them as such. So hopefully that's a good high level overview of those four sets of mindsets. was brilliant, Ryan. And what is the most common mindset block among high achievers or leaders that you see? Yeah, it's interesting. So leaders generally, it's the fix to growth. Almost every single leadership group that I've worked with, that's the mindset set that they struggle with the most. When I work with, I'm going to say coaches, consultants, scientists, experts, the one that they struggle with the most is that closed mindset versus the open mindset. And when I work with employees that aren't in leadership positions, The one that they struggle with the most is the prevention to promotion mindsets. So those are some of the common themes that I see across different groups. Ryan, you've said that leaders need to heal, to grow. And that's something you don't usually hear on any business setting. At least I've never heard this or anybody saying to you need to heal before you can lead. Can you unpack the concept? Yeah. And so how do most leaders try to grow? Right. It's the horizontal development that we talked about. They try to gain new knowledge and new skills. But here's one of the things that I've learned is I've as I've worked with these leaders who are operating in fourth gear, they're peddled to the metal, they're going, going, going. Well, there's generally a reason why. And that reason why generally connects back to some form of past trauma. Right. So, for example, I've worked with the CEO. And he said, when I grew up, my dad left. didn't have a relationship with my dad. My mom worked two jobs and I rarely saw her. She just didn't seem to be concerned about my life. And so he said, one of the things that I learned as I got into business is that if I could win in business, I could finally get the recognition I never received when I was a child. So he's one of these fourth gear leaders who's peddled to the metal. Why? because at a foundational level, his body is craving recognition that he didn't get as a child. And so everybody has their own story. Everybody has their own journey. But what I've learned is that all of us have room for healing. And really when we do that vertical development work at a foundational level, it's really is about healing our minds, our bodies and our hearts. And if we can heal our minds, our bodies and our hearts, then we can become more of the people that others want to follow. And so hopefully that is at least a high level overview of that, or do you wanna dig deeper into that? That's good, right? You've seen transformations. Let's see what happens when people get to go through this transformation. What does a company look like when their leaders prioritize being better? And how can companies make it happen? Yeah, so I think one of the best ways to gauge the impact of what happens when the leader elevates is to look at, and here's the term, and it's not my term, in fact it was coined by a lady named Nadia Zekzenbaeva. She calls herself the Chief Reinvention Officer. But what she says is we need to measure and look at life in the system. And what I found is that when leaders operate at a lower being side level, they suck out the life in the system. When leaders operate from a higher vertical development altitude at a higher being side, they add life to the system. And I think that there's, every company you can measure life in the system in different ways, right? I think employee engagement, for example, is one way to measure that. Retention rate is another way to measure it. uh Burnout rates are another way to measure it, right? But I think that idea of how much life is there in the system. And so if you study uh organizations that have transformed, let's take Microsoft. As they went from Steve Ballmer to Sachin Adela, there was a huge transformation of that organization. Well, we can now go back in time and kind of investigate. What was the life in the system under Steve Ballmer and what's the life in the system under Sachin Adela? And what we would find is that there wasn't a lot of life under Steve Ballmer. There was a lot of competition, backbiting, infighting, but under Sachin Adela, there's this collaboration. There's light. There's uh much more willingness to step into these learning zone challenges and be innovative and creative. And so I think hopefully that notion, life in the system is a good gauge for where you're currently at in terms of as a leader and where you want to get to. Ryan, if someone is feeling stuck or stagnant, what's the one shift they can make today to begin operating from a being access? Yeah. Well, the starting place is always deeper self-awareness. So whatever we choose to do, it's got to be something that deepens our self-awareness. And that's one of the reasons why I created the mindset assessment that I did, uh is it was a tool that people could take and they could awaken to the quality of their mindsets. Now that's not the only tool, right? There's a variety of different books and resources that are out there. In fact, I've got a new book coming out called Becoming Better, The Groundbreaking Science of Personal Transformation. And it's designed to help people to do a deep introspective dive to deepen their self-awareness so that they can become more of the person they want to become. Brian, let's do some rapid fire questions. Let's do five questions in under 30 seconds each. Number one, what's the most overrated piece of leadership advice today? I think it is related to the notion that one has to be a charismatic leader to be an effective leader. I think in many ways we equate great leadership with charisma and that's just simply not the case. A great leadership comes about by being side development, not the showy aspects of charisma. Number two, annual performance review. Do we keep them? What do we do with them? Well, I think if they are done right, we need them. If they're not done right, let's throw them out, right? The problem is that they're rarely done right. I think here's one good rule of thumb. Performance reviews really have two purposes, development and evaluation. We need to keep those things separate in terms of the meetings that we have with employees. And if we could keep them separate, I think they'll go much better. 3. How do you spot a transformational leader in an interview? Well, I think the question that I asked earlier could be applied. How do you measure success? And if they start talking about numbers and figures, you know they're not yet where they could be. If they're talking about purpose, I think you found the right person. 4. What is one mindset shift that instantly boosts team trust? I'm gonna say the inward to outward mindset. If we could help, uh if we could see our peers, our partners, our colleagues as people as opposed to objects, it'll make the biggest difference, right? Because if a person comes into a group with an inward mindset, they're generally thinking, how are you gonna help me out? If an outward mindset person comes into a group, they're gonna be thinking, how can I help this group out? And that makes all the difference. Number five, the number one sign a company is stuck in doing mode. It's the focus on numbers and results as opposed to purpose. And I'm not saying that you can't grow by focusing on numbers and results, but I think generally what we find is that organizations that focus on numbers and results generally have a kind of a rocket effect in terms of their trajectory. They quickly go up and they quickly come down. I don't know if you're gonna hate the question, but how can we measure vertical development? Yeah, mindsets is a great thing for us to focus on, it connects directly into our internal operating system. And so I think mindsets are a great way to evaluate it. I think another way to evaluate it is also what is our level of reactivity? How quickly do we get triggered or set off and get into reactive mode and away from intentionality? So I think that's maybe a uh good rule of thumb. Ryan, let's wrap up the conversation. What is one personal habit you have and that you practice that helps you stay grounded in being and not just doing? See, there is a general tendency of going doing, right? And this is something I see in myself quite a lot, right? You know, when in trouble, go do something, right? You get, you do something, you'll be okay. Okay. How do you manage to stay in the being? Well, so I'm gonna give you two answers. One is really quick, and that's meditation. One of the things that science has found is that meditation is almost needed to regulate our body's nervous system, our internal operating system. But a particular tool that I found game-changing for me, I'll show it to you here, it's this book, it's called The Five Minute Journal. And this book was given to me by a CEO um when I met him for this first time. Great CEO, charismatic guy, I really like the guy. and he hands me this book and he says, this book is gonna change your life. And outwardly I'm very gracious saying, thank you so much, I love books. But inwardly I'm thinking, who do you think I am? There is no way that I'm gonna journal. So I came home and I literally went to throw it in the trash and as I'm in the motion of throwing it in the trash, I had like this almost spiritual epiphany where I had this guy's face in my mind's eye over my shoulder. and I heard him say the words, this book will change your life. And so I stopped mid throw and I kind of opened it up, I look at it and it invites me to do some journaling, five minutes in the morning and five minutes at night. And I just kind of said to myself, well let me try it out and if it helps me, then I'll keep doing it and if it doesn't, I'll throw it away. And so I tried it out for two weeks and I was like, I feel like I'm a different person. And I've now been doing this for over seven years, and I find it a necessary part of my daily ritual. So I'll encourage you, if you haven't heard of the Five Minute Journal, check it out, and I think you'll find it game-changing. Wow. Ryan, where can people know more about you um and your stories, your knowledge, your wisdom, your books? How can people find you? Well, I appreciate even this opportunity to be on here with you. And you can find me on my website, RyanGotfertson.com. uh I'm also on all the social media channels most active in LinkedIn. And I guess here's what I'll do Santiago. If you're a listener to this, and if you take one of my assessments, the mindset assessment, or I've got another one called the vertical development assessment. If you take those and send me an email or connect with me on social media, um I will... jump on a call to talk through your results with you. So if anybody wants to take me up on that, the offer's on the table. Wow, that's amazing. Ryan, thank you so much for this time today. This is what I'm taking away. There is an important vertical axis that we always, almost always forget about. We get to focus on horizontal and that we need to heal. You need to find why you are like you are. And the third one is the triggers, the tool that you give for triggers, how many because we all get triggered, I guess, at some point. It's inevitable. But the frequency, I think, matters. So this is something I'm going to take with me next week at work or tomorrow. I will measure how many times I get triggered. And I'll probably write it down in a piece of paper until I get the journal. Ryan Godforson, thank you so much for this insightful conversation. Yeah, thanks for having me. This has been awesome. Thank you.