ProductiviTree: Cultivating Efficiency, Harvesting Joy

The Trauma Behind Your To-Do List - PTSD and Perfectionism with Brooke Bralove Ep34

• Santiago Tacoronte • Season 2 • Episode 34

Share episode

In this conversation, Brooke Bralove, a therapist specializing in Accelerated Resolution Therapy (ART), discusses the intricate relationship between perfectionism, trauma, and productivity. She explains how perfectionism often stems from early childhood experiences and can lead to various mental health issues. Brooke emphasizes the importance of distinguishing between healthy ambition and harmful perfectionism, advocating for self-compassion and the recognition that rest is a right, not a privilege. The discussion also touches on the impact of trauma on decision-making and focus, the culture of overworking in the workplace, and the detrimental effects of social media on self-worth. Ultimately, Brooke encourages listeners to embrace their humanity and strive for a balance between high standards and self-acceptance.


Takeaways

  • ART changes how the brain stores distressing images.
  • Perfectionism can be linked to childhood trauma.
  • Ambition is driven by internal values, perfectionism by external judgment.
  • People often confuse productivity with self-worth.
  • Rest should be seen as a right, not a reward.
  • Trauma can manifest as hypervigilance or distractibility.
  • Workplace cultures often reward overworking and perfectionism.
  • Self-compassion is essential for overcoming perfectionism.
  • Healthy striving is the opposite of perfectionism.
  • Social media can exacerbate feelings of inadequacy.


Thanks for listening to ProductiviTree! If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe and share.

🟢 Spotify

🟣 Apple Podcasts

🟡 Amazon Music

🔴 YouTube

Connect with me:

Have questions or suggestions? Email us at info@santiagotacoronte.com

Brooke Bralove is a licensed clinical social worker, psychotherapist, advanced accelerated resolution therapy, art practitioner, and AACCT certified sex therapist. Brooke specializes in treating adults, couples, and groups with depression, anxiety, trauma, and relationship challenges. Through her facilitation of Brenees Brown's shame-resilience curriculum, and move towards greater authenticity, joy and connection. Brooke's new passion is accelerated resolution therapy, a brief treatment modality using bilateral eye movements to provide lasting relief and healing to patients with PTSD, trauma, phobias, addictions, OCD and depression. She holds degrees from the University of Pennsylvania and Columbia University and has maintained a private practice in Bethesda, Maryland. for 20 years. Hi Brook and welcome to Productivity. Hi, thank you so much for having me. Brooke, you help people heal trauma in one to five sessions. That sounds incredible. Can you explain us what is art and how does it work? Sure. So ART stands for Accelerated Resolution Therapy, which is a brief treatment modality, as you said, one to five sessions, that changes the way the brain stores distressing images and then the corresponding negative sensations that show up in the body. So um we use something called voluntary image replacement to actually re-script events or things that you are working on like depression, anxiety, OCD, phobias, PTSD, um perfectionism, and we re-script them and so the brain basically holds on to these new images and we uh use calming bilateral brain stimulation to do that. um Art has been around since 2007 and it's an incredible modality and I've been using it non-stop in the last few years. Brooke, when did you find out that perfectionism could be linked to PTSD? So perfectionism is a big topic. And I think that for many of us growing up, perfectionism was a positive, positive thing. And I really started to see how perfectionism is linked to trauma and PTSD early in my practice. uh many, many times a client would come in. And unfortunately, this is sort of a common thread here. And they would talk about things like growing up in a home where they would come home from school and their parents would say, so how'd the math test go? And they'd say, I got a 98. And they'd be all proud. And their mom or dad would look at them and say, so what happened to the other two points? Right? Not great job, that sounds amazing. but what happened? And so I think perfectionism can be learned very early on in childhood. And then we really see it kind of manifesting in these really traumatic ways. So that that person grows up and is never happy with a 98, so to speak, on anything, any project. any work-related issue, any relationship. And so they really begin to kind of obsess over that perfectionism for fear of that kind of early criticism and judgment. And then they internalize that and they bring their own criticism and judgment to their actions and in the workplace, that kind of thing. Perfectionism is often can look like ambition from the outside. He or she wants to do it really well. It's very ambitious, very professional even. How can people know when perfectionism is helping and when is it hurting what you're doing and diminishing your results? Sure. So I think ambition, we sort of understand as being driven by kind of internal values and desire, right? So it's inside the person. Whereas perfectionism is actually an outside in thing. So it's driven by the fear of that shame or judgment. And so I think asking yourself, you know, is this Am I doing this because it means something to me and it's aligned with my values? Or am I doing something because I'm afraid of outside judgment or shame? And I think to tell the difference, know, you often can ask yourself like, am I doing this from a place of my own worthiness? Or am I doing it to try to earn that worthiness. um so I think kind of asking questions like this is a really great way to um differentiate those two, know, ambition and perfectionism. You've said that many people confuse being productive with being enough. What does that look like in real life? Well, I think it looks like people who cannot relax at all. You you say, you know, when was the last time you just sat on the couch and did nothing and they look at you like you're absolutely crazy. You know, these are people who when they watch TV, they're also checking their bank accounts online or, you know, doing they can't sit still. So I think looking at for people who, you know, they can't relaxed without feeling incredibly guilty. um People who measure their day by kind of the output. What did I do? What did I check off? What can I show for myself today? Rather than frankly trying to live uh in a way that is more present, um where you're kind of in your experience throughout the day, people who are struggling to kind of be enough are always thinking, what could I be doing or what should I be doing? These are also people who kind of overcommit to prove their value. These are people who are always volunteering, they're always caregiving, they're always hosting. And again, some of these things may be in line with their own values, but often it's really to earn approval or not to be seen as sort of selfish. So they're always giving. but they're always moving. And when they rest, they often are overcome with deep feelings of shame or guilt. you know, we want to be able to rest in pleasure and peace, right? That's what resting is. But these kinds of people really struggle with uh being enough is doing, caring, and over-functioning, frankly. I just saw myself reflected in certain parts of my life in what you just said. How do you get out of this vicious cycle? How do you convince yourself that sitting in the couch for an hour, looking to the ceiling of your room, it's okay? Yeah, yeah. And again, I think we all recognize ourselves in this. Again, this idea that perfectionism, I now consider sort of a dirty word, but it was a really positive word and we all grew up with that and we're still clinging to it uh to some degree. I often will uh call myself a uh perfectionist kind of. in training, right? So I'm in process or a former perfectionist trying to strive for excellence. But I think you need to be able to speak to yourself in a very kind way. You need to develop some self-compassion and you need to be able to say to yourself and kind of soothe yourself when you're sitting quietly, I am not my to-do list. I am not a reflection of how many boxes I checked off today. And another thing that I think is so important that I am actually truly learning, frankly, because I have a chronic illness, but I have to rest. And so now rest is not a reward. It's a right. It's my sort of God given right. And I'm not religious. I don't mean that in any religious way, just it's my right to rest. And in fact, if we don't build it in, it will show up for us, but it will not show up as, just need to take a little nap. It'll show up as I can't go to work anymore and I'm completely done and I, you know, I can't function anymore. And we don't want it to show up that way. We don't want to quit. We don't want to stop. but your body will eventually yell at you to rest. And so instead of needing it to yell at you, I encourage people to really try to think about like, rest is my right. It is not a privilege and it doesn't have to be earned. Let's go back to PTSD, which stands for Post Traumatic Stress Disorder. You mentioned one potentially traumatic event that can cause PTSD and derive in perfectionism or even worse, I don't want to stop doing things. I need to do more and more and more, which was your parents, your grades. You gave the example of the grades. What other cases can be considered or what other traumas do we face that can cause you to be restless and trying to achieve or to strive for the impossible or for doing more and more. Yeah, any trauma, anything at all that happens. mean, I think we want to understand like perfectionism and being obsessed with doing things well and perfect is a coping mechanism. It's a response to an event or response to a relationship with a parent or um it's a coping mechanism. so It's a healthier coping mechanism than say alcohol or drugs or sex or gambling, but it's still actually serving the same function, which is I don't want to feel my feelings. I don't want to slow down. I want to numb. I want to keep my body in a hyper aroused state. And this is all the same as what we do, as the feelings we seek when we drink or, you know, do drugs, when people are numbing and trying to cope. It's just that we now have decided that that is a very functional, positive way to cope. But I actually think it has similar, a similar impact on your body, on your nervous system. I mean, drugs will wreck you in one way, but perfectionism will wreck you. Also, it might be slower over time, but it's still an insidious kind of coping mechanism that gets overused and over relied upon. Let's talk about um the nervous system and how does trauma affect focus and decision making and even physical energy in a work day, in a normal day. Right. So, you know, we really know now that trauma is all about how it shows up in the body. Right. And so you could get over a trauma because you've talked about it and you feel like you understand it and, you know, that kind of thing. But often it doesn't ever leave your body unless you do something like accelerated resolution therapy or some sort of somatic treatment. But trauma in terms of the workplace. So it often shows up in either kind of a hypervigilance or it could be distractibility. your brain gets kind of stuck in this survival mode. And so people are often, they don't even know, but they're kind of scanning the room. They're very aware of what other people are doing. And that, when you're hyper focused on what's going around you, You're not actually working on a project. You're distracted by your own hypervigilance. um Trauma sometimes can show up as intrusive thoughts that can get in the way of productivity. Someone could trigger something in a meeting and you just aren't able to be productive that day because you've got all these other triggers kind of going on. um then, know, trauma is exhausting. And the effects of trauma are very exhausting. And so you often can find people with a lot of mental fatigue, brain fog, um they may feel sluggish in the workplace, things like that. And then of course, decision-making, you can't think when you're in a fight, flight, freeze response, right? That's exactly what's meant to happen. Your brain shuts down and you're, you know, uh nervous system kind of turns on to try to help whatever trauma you're experiencing. But that means that you stop being organized, stopped having, you you stop having good productive thoughts. And again, you're in this kind of fight-flee and you can also overthink. um things you can get really stuck on one thought and you second guess yourself and you're not able to kind of make decisions in a productive way. And then of course, as we talked about, just like fatigue, physical energy, sleep problems, somatic symptoms, stomach aches, headaches. So all these things can show up in the workplace and uh really be a problem, frankly. Brooke, how do you convince successful people? And I think we have relevant examples now in the US, like Elon Musk, someone that is ultra rich. I'm not equating rich to successful, right? Just to be very clear. But you know, the society tends to think that the richest people is the more successful they are. Who is vouching for working 16, 18 hours? He's bragging that he can work 22 hours a day and only sleep two hours. How do you tell these people that this is not healthy or good in the long run? Because this kind of operating is how they got there. Right. So first of all, it can be very difficult to convince anyone they're doing too much, right? um And they're working too much because as you said, we equate and especially in Washington DC where I am where, you know, tons of lawyers, they literally only get paid when they bill hours. So people run around bragging how many hours they work, you know. And that does equal, you know, money, very frankly. So it really can be hard to try to help people detach. And that's often what I think about is, let's see if you can detach a little bit and be able to look at your own behavior from stepping back. What would you say to a friend who said they just worked 80 hours this week and they're raising two kids? Would you say that's amazing? You're incredible. You're the Energizer bunny? They might. Or they might say, wow, um that's incredible that you have that capacity. But just because you have the capacity doesn't mean you need to do that. And again, maybe not a lawyer who gets billed by that, but someone who just is frankly choosing to work that much. So um I think talking about burnout, um Again, you know, this is just a flame and at some point it's going to burn out. And then what? Then you again have to go to, um you know, be hospitalized for exhaustion, you know, something like that. And then also to see that, that working really is a coping mechanism. Over-functioning is a way. to manage feelings. And in fact, you probably don't have any feelings because you're just working through them. But what's the cost? What's underneath? And trying to help them see that they may be missing out on some personal life things. They may be missing out on deep connection. If you're working all the time, what are your connections like with family and friends? And so I often just point out those things that might end up being very costly to the person. Do you think that workplace environments reward perfectionism in a way that they actually reinforce trauma? Yeah, I do. I I think that again, everything is like, wow, you know, you're so motivated. You're such a perfectionist. People will let workers, you know, I want them, if I'm a boss, I want the most out of you. So I'm gonna keep rewarding you the harder you work. And everyone around you is gonna see. that because you work so much, I'm rewarding you. Well, what do think the other people are going to do? They're going to say, I guess I have to work that much too. And so I do think we have to look at culture and changing cultures in the workplace, where instead of um perfectionism and editing till the sun rises is rewarded. What could also be rewarded is healthy boundaries, not over promising something. People who are perfectionists often over promise to do something and do it well. um saying no is actually a very kind thing to do sometimes if you don't think you can deliver. And so again, people rewarding. taking time off, not working on the weekends. I love when people come in and they say, my boss says we literally cannot check email after, you know, 8 p.m. And I think that's so great because actually that boss is probably saving, you know, hundreds of thousands of dollars on medical leave um and mental health treatment where people have to leave, you know, once a week for an appointment. because if you're putting those kind of limits, healthy limits on your staff, they are gonna last longer. It's just a fact. So it really does reward, you will be rewarded as a boss to change the culture, for sure. Brooke, for someone stuck in a perfectionist loop, what's one mindset shift they can start practicing today? Well, I think um they can begin kind of thinking about implementing self-compassion, beginning a self-compassion practice. Because perfectionism is, if I do everything perfect, act perfect, look perfect, I will not be faced with criticism, judgment, you know, and change. And so moving that into really using self-compassion. It's okay, I'm a human being, I have limits, I'm a good person, I'm not my to-do list, um I don't need to earn my worth, I already have it. often it's like, self-compassion, the best practice around self-compassion, which is Kristin Neff's work is, How would I talk to someone I love? So if I'm saying to myself, you suck, this paper sucks, you need to make it better, you need to make it perfect. If I saw my best friend saying that to herself, would I say, yeah, you're right, you suck? No, I would say, whoa, you're being really hard on yourself. Maybe you've put in enough work for today and it's time to get a good night's sleep. You know, I think you need to be kinder to yourself. And that's what we need to do. So asking ourselves, how would you talk to someone you love is a wonderful way to practice self-compassion. Because you wouldn't say, you suck, you know, you're not perfect, it's terrible. You would be kind and empathic. So you need to start being that to yourself. Brooke, by now we know that perfectionism, it could be eh dangerous. But where do you draw the line between perfectionism, still keeping high standards, um and being good at what you do, and being productive, because being productive is important for humans. You wanna feel... Mm-hmm. want to fulfill yourself with, feel accomplished, right? So how do you let perfectionism go but still keep a high standards attitude and professionalism and you show that you are reliable and trustworthy? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Well, I think it's showing up. Showing up can be enough. And again, you have to value yourself. And if you are reliable, then you just are. But do you need to be, uh you know, employee of the month every month? Is that the goal? Or is the goal, again, to be reliable, to uh last longer, to stay longer? And again, these are kind of two sides of a coin. But one thing I really want to make sure that you understand is the opposite of perfectionism is healthy striving. So everyone wants to be a healthy striver. But you have, look at the word that's used, healthy. And so healthy looks like boundaries. Healthy looks like saying no. Healthy looks like knowing how much energy you have, but you're still striving. But you know, it all goes back to that 98%. If you got drilled into that 98 % is not. an A in anyone's mind, then you've internalized that. And you've got to remember a 98 is pretty amazing. Hmm And no one does 100%. I think it's so important that we actually remember that perfectionism doesn't actually exist. So when you're striving for something that doesn't actually exist, you're always going to feel disappointed and less than. Why would you want to be in that state all the time? Whereas healthy striving takes in I had a bad night's sleep, so I'm not as productive today. darn, I missed that meeting because I overslept because I'm a human being, but I'm going to make sure I understand what happened in that meeting and find out so I'm up to date. These are all things that are what is what healthy striving looks like. But when you are only seeking perfection and you know it doesn't exist, makes you kind of dumb, actually. I hate to say it, but it kind of does. Like, you're silly. You're still chasing perfectionism. Hey, spoiler alert, it doesn't exist. Yeah, it's like chasing a unicorn, You're never gonna get there, so better let go. fool here? And again, I say that with total self-compassion because I can be very perfectionistic about certain things. And I actually even encourage people to, rather than saying, I'm a perfectionist, which really shows no ability to change or move, right? That's like, I am a perfectionist. I will try to help people see that actually, their car's a mess. So they're not a perfectionist there. And is the world ending because your car's a mess? Or you em sent your kid to school with the socks that don't match, because they're too, and they get to decide what socks they wear to school, because it makes them feel in control and powerful of one thing. So I will point out, hey, you know. Your kid's socks didn't match. So you allow that to happen. You tolerate that. And once again, the world doesn't end. So rather than a static thing of I am a perfectionist, I try to help people locate where they have those perfectionistic tendencies and work on those and realize that actually not everything is perfect. And I can't tell you how often I have to help people see this whole idea of cleaning before the cleaning lady comes, right? You know, I always see people say, you my cleaning lady's coming tomorrow, so I have to clean. And I'm thinking, why are you doing that? um To impress the cleaner that you're not that messy? You know, what's that about? What if you didn't clean one day? So I encourage people to take these risks, try things out. Because until you try not to be perfect, you will always perpetuate that the world will end. But once you do it and say, bad happened, then that gives you the confidence to kind of let loose, not let loose, but just like relax 10%, 5%. That's all we're talking about. Our society and social media encourages perfectionism and chasing ah and perhaps not being content with anything. You open Instagram or Facebook or Twitter and it's everything about do more, earn more, travel more, get a bigger car, get a bigger house. How can we protect, give us a tip to protect ourselves from this constant bombarding of you are not enough. Yeah, yeah. mean, that is, you know, I've got I've got a little bumper sticker here that says I am enough and it's under a little mirror. So it's for me. It's for my clients. So the not enough feeling, first of all, is a very common feeling. Many of us, when we get down to it, we have that inside of us somewhere. And yes, social media is a disaster for how you feel about yourself because again, it is the second you open it that you are bombarded with, um you know, seeing what seeming perfection. So what I talk about with people is that what is actually happening is you are matching your insides to someone else's outsides, right? So when you see that family picture on the beach where every single one Every single person of the family is wearing a white shirt with their blue jeans and it's a perfect white sand beach. You see that one photo and you say they're perfect. My family doesn't look like that. We have socks that don't match and stains on our clothes sometimes, right? But what didn't you see? You didn't see the infant, uh you know, uh the colicky infant crying. five minutes before that one instant was taken with a photo. And you didn't see that dad is a temper and ah was just kind of mean to mom, right? So that's the insides. But you're comparing all your feelings that you have on the inside to something people want to project. So it's an unfair comparison. And I think that can really help people. um to just keep saying that's for show and I'm focusing on what I'm feeling on the inside and those two things don't match. That is true because that is a moment in time. And I'm not saying that family wasn't lovely and happy and present and great, but usually joy lasts for like an instant. We have moments of joy. We don't have deep, long, states of joy. Because can I curse on here? a little bit. Okay, because shit happens. I wouldn't consider this cursing. uh And so we go for the moments of joy. I really think that life is actually about stringing as many moments of joy together as you can. And that has nothing to do with perfection and everything to do with presence and deep breaths. Wow, that was very powerful, Brooke. Can we do five rapid fire questions? Let's go. Number one, what is one perfectionist habit that pretends to be high performance? over editing, over checking, never having anything, like you can't turn it in, you can't turn it in, you can't turn it in. That looks like you are just amazing and you are diligent, but it is a terrible coping mechanism and creates paralysis actually, and can even create procrastination because, so not only do you not start it, but you'll never finish it. Number two, is trauma created in the workplace real or is it overused and an excuse? don't think it's an excuse, I think it's true. You get triggered by a boss who reminds you of your aunt who was really mean and it can happen. Now you gotta figure out how to deal with it. It's not something that you can avoid but no, I think it happens for real. Number three, self-care trend that you secretly roll your eyes at. Okay, I roll my eyes and I wish I could do it at the same time. um These morning routines, these perfect, I always get up with my circadian rhythm at six and of course I went to bed at 10 already because that's just the way it goes. And um I drink a glass of water when I first wake up. I um move to the bathroom, I look at myself in the mirror and I say, Today's gonna be a great day. And then I've got my 10 minutes of writing, free writing, followed by my uh meditation. um And then my cold shower, of course, I need to do. And then I don't have coffee. How could I ever have coffee, but I do have some protein. Drives me bananas, and I wish I could do it a little bit more. Number four, what's one myth about therapy that needs to die? that all therapists want is for you to stay in therapy as long as you can. That is not true. um Therapy is like raising kids. Our goal is to be there and nurture you and teach you and guide you and let you discover who you are and then to free you. um We do not want to create life dependency. We want to help you grow, blossom and leave. And number five, should everyone be in therapy at some point? If money's not an object, 100 % yes. But in fact, money is often the problem. so we don't have people, the right people don't have access to therapy and that's a crime because everyone can benefit. What's your top piece of advice for people that are chasing goals, making never-ending to-do lists, to do more and more, but they are secretly struggling with perfectionism or they have unresolved trauma or they don't even know they have a trauma? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. um Focus on the healthy striving rather than perfectionism. Focus on was that good enough? I love the idea of good enough. Was I a good enough mother today? Was I a good enough therapist today? Good enough is pretty darn great. And to develop uh self-compassion, a practice of self-compassion, you learn how to be self-compassionate. Those are the things that I think will help you move forward. Where can listeners learn more about you, your therapy practice, your upcoming workshops, sessions and get to know you more, Brook? So my website's a great place. It's brookbralev.com. And you can actually read about accelerated resolution therapy. I now have a team of uh two other therapists who are art practitioners. So it's very exciting. One of the practitioners can work actually worldwide due to her licensure. um And what's really cool is Artworks is equally effective virtually as in person. And so really it's a great way to learn about a practice that you don't have to talk about your traumas. It works in one to five sessions. It's very efficient. And then also uh I'm a sex therapist and a regular talk therapist. um And I also do uh weekend workshops for women using Brene Brown's shame resilience curriculum, where actually we talk a ton about perfectionism as a kind of a a 20-ton shield that actually keeps you from intimacy and connection because no one can connect to seeming perfection. We actually kind of distance ourselves from it because it just seems like something we can't reach. So that means people can't reach you when you're trying so hard to be perfect. So remember that. Brooke, I wanna thank you for this super insightful conversation. I'm taking away three things. Number one is that with the right help and the right mindset, we can get out of the hamster wheel. Many times self-created, many times we jump into the hamster's wheels ourselves. The second one is that those routines that everybody claims or some people claims as magical. are not a silver bullet. And the third one, and I think the most powerful one is that we are enough and almost everybody's doing their best. And that should be a desert. want to say one, the last thing I want to say is we are human beings, not human doers. And so literally what we are, we are meant to be. We are not meant to do all the time. And uh happiness, contentment is in the being, not the doing. Amazing. It's a bit ironic because this podcast is about productivity. But productivity has many angles. There are definitely ways of being more productive outcome wise, and there are definitely also ways of being more productive by not doing anything. Brooke, thanks a million for being with us today and good luck with everything. Thank you.