ProductiviTree: Cultivating Efficiency, Harvesting Joy

India Job Search Secrets: Remote Hiring Hacks & Recruitment Trends with Rashesh Doshi

• Santiago Tacoronte • Season 2 • Episode 42

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In this conversation, Rashesh Doshi shares his journey in the recruitment industry, discussing the evolution of Talent Corner and the importance of internships. He emphasizes the role of AI in shaping job markets and offers practical advice for new graduates. The discussion also covers the gig economy, generational differences in the workforce, and the significance of soft skills in hiring. Rashesh highlights the need for balance in work and personal life, advocating for consistency and proactive career management.

Takeaways

  • Rashesh Doshi started Talent Corner out of necessity and passion.
  • Franchising was a key strategy for scaling Talent Corner.
  • Internships can provide fresh insights and energy to organizations.
  • A well-structured internship program is essential for success.
  • AI is transforming job markets but also creating new opportunities.
  • New graduates should focus on building skills and using AI effectively.
  • Human interaction remains crucial in recruitment despite AI advancements.
  • The gig economy allows companies to innovate without heavy investments.
  • Generational differences require understanding and adaptation in the workplace.
  • Soft skills are prioritized over hard skills in hiring decisions.

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Rachech Doshi, welcome to productivity. Thank you Santiago. You started Talent Corner over 20 years ago when recruitment wasn't a fancy thing, so to speak, right? What made you jump into HR and recruitment? And why did you stay with it for so long? So, Santiago, know, sometimes necessity is the mother of all inventions, correct? And uh when I was 20 years of age, just finishing high school, uh you know, in India, when you say finishing high school or college, it basically means getting your graduate degree. And I was having options of doing different things. uh One of them was to do a Masters in Business Administration, we call MBA. But I did really badly at these entrance examinations. So, know, lot of doors shut down for me at that point of time because of my poor scores. uh The second thing that happened is I said, OK, let me do what most young people do next, which is go and look out for a job. And that obviously was not going to pay me too well either. And then we looked back at what the family does and, know, what what is really thriving in India which is entrepreneurship. uh I belong to uh a community in India called the Gujarati community which is very very entrepreneurial in nature. So my dad told me that you know what why don't you just come and join and be a part of the business and I said okay why give it a second thought let me give it a shot. uh This business was something that dad actually wanted to shut down because he was was thriving in his other business. and I said, let me give it a shot, let's see what happens. uh The first year was a lot of good experiences. We started making money. And like most people, when you make money and you get success, you want to stick along with it and you start loving to do what you do. So the answer is, I think the opportunity just fell into my lap and it was just more of a necessity. But I absolutely fell in love with what I do. I still do that. And that's the reason I've stayed here for more than 20 years now. How did you uh scale the company? I think you went into franchising with Talent Corner. How did you went from a small shop to a massive company in India hiring thousands and thousands of people? So, you know, like most people in Santiago, we were also kind of figuring it out in terms of how to grow, to scale the business. And like most companies, we went from a three people team to almost a hundred people team till the year 2011. That's when the world went through a recession. And we said we need to start doing things differently. We started meeting our clients. And obviously our clients were not upset with us, but there was more to those conversations than just, you know, sitting down and having a cup of coffee. It's the then then we realized that if we have to scale this business, we will need to create, you know, people who are wanting to build it up together, to scale it together. We could have done it the conventional way, but we said, let's experiment with franchising. We started with a few franchise partners who were enthusiastic about us. And, you know, as time would go by, we have more than a hundred franchise partners across India. And, you know, the company became a full-scale grown company in terms of franchising. That's where we pivoted. Today, luckily, that really worked out well for us because our customers are obviously more happier. Our franchise partners are happier. Our team members are more happier. and eventually we are creating value for everybody involved. that's how we've, you know, went through conversations. We've learned more about franchising and scaled it up. Moving forward, like what, 20, 25 years, you're a person, you're a big thinker. You like to think about uh people, recruitment and working in different aspects. Can we speak a little bit about internship? internships is a productive engine, right? Some people say that, well, internships are distractions for companies. Some others says that they're a productive pipeline of future leaders. How do you take internships these days and how do you use it with companies? So Santiago, I'll speak out of my experience. I do understand that a lot of people have not had great experiences with interns because they think what can you give someone who works with you for two months, three months, or maybe six months? uh The fact being told, think interns have really, really helped me as a leader and the organization as a whole at Talent Corner. uh We found that these interns, bring a fresh set of energy and extremely different insights within the organization. Sometimes, you know, when you're working with people, uh experimenting becomes very difficult because people are obviously used to old way of working. They are reluctant when it comes to changing things because they feel why should we change if it's uh However, you know, things will never get better. if you are going to stick to the old pattern, if you're going to keep doing the same things, things will never get better. And that's what interns do for you. Interns actually give you insights on what can be done better. uh Interns are typically, uh if I may say, are the sudden spurt of energy that you require to push everybody to move forward. And that's what's happened at R &D. Yes, mean I must say that you know it can't just be a oh know a one-time hiring or you you just bring it in in turn and allow them to figure out what to do. You have to be invested in them as well. There must be a structured program. You must give it a thought. And you know I often say this to my team as well saying that internships are like your productivity currency or secret productivity currency. Use them wisely and they are small investments but who have great potential returns. So that's my experience around Intern Santiago. Nowadays, internships are a bit different because many of uh working places are remote or hybrid. So you don't get, perhaps, interns to be as much time with other people as they used to be. What's your take on this? How is a well-designed internship uh program that caters for hybrid work and not being in office every day? You know honestly I think it brings the best out of the intern as well. You don't want the intern to be with you all the time. You want them to give them the space to think as long as you give them a direction. What the mistakes that I made earlier with regards to the internship program is I've told them what to do all the time. And when I stopped doing that and when I told them this is what I need you to do and I need you to come back to me after some thinking in terms of how you can do it differently. you give me your ideas. Many of them who are working remotely as well have worked very well for me. I can tell you, know, Santiago, I built my own internal uh CRM with a team of interns who worked from home. We were we had invested into many technologies in the customer relationship management segment, but we were very unhappy with what was being brought together. But when we invested in these tech interns, They did a really good job and in fact better than what some of the top talent in the country could do. So, uh remote or not remote, I think with the right direction, they will really do a great job. I want to touch upon two topics. Well, one topic, is a topic of the decade, AI, artificial intelligence, uh and branching into two different subtopics. The first one is um AI taking over jobs. I've been reading articles from India. saying that the India tech powerhouses, I'm not going to name any of them, are not hiring, not bringing interns as they used to. It's not only in India, by the way. It's also heard in the financial sector and in other sectors that, well, AI can do all these uh interns jobs or early careers jobs. What's your take on that? Is it truly a crisis for India coming on the- graduate to first job uh pattern. So, Santiago, I'll be honest to you. It's too early to talk about what impact this will have in the long run. But yes, we are seeing early signs of, you know, people getting replaced by AI in certain segments. I don't think it's across the board. I don't think it's across organizations. You know, what typically happens is the media obviously glorifies a few news that are coming across. And I must say that as much as AI has taken away jobs, it's also created jobs. I'm very clear on one thing that I don't think AI will replace someone. It will just amplify that potential and productivity. People just need to figure out what they need to do with this new technology that has come on board. And once people figure out, once talent figures out what needs to be done, I think, uh you know, you will see jobs being created at a rapid pace. You'll see people's productivity improving. ah I wouldn't tell people there is nothing to worry about. What I would tell people is there is not as much to worry about as long as you are focusing on developing your skill. There is no two ways that you can think that AI is not something that you want to work around with. You have to learn AI, you will need to understand what this technology can do for you. And as long as you're trying to figure it out and use it in your day to day uh work, ah you don't need to worry too much about it. Can you give some practical advice for people or for youngs that just finished university or are about to finish it and that they are worried about, I'm not going to get an entry job? What do you think they should be doing? they be uh doing something specific, continue learning, as you said, with the help of AI? What specific things can we do to help all these people? That's a great question, Santiago. There's a lot that people can do. One, I think every single person who is a fresher in the world at university uh first needs to build a skill set. They need to start understanding what AI has potential to do and start using AI very, very effectively. It's just a practice, right? I think you and me, Santiago, when we started using chat GPTs of the world, we started figuring it out ourselves and now I'm pretty sure that, know, least the two of us who are business leaders, you know, actually use four or five different AI tools. Now someone who's a fresher can, you know, obviously get onto it much quicker. Two, there are problems to be solved using AI, right? uh Sometimes what would happen is that the talent which was there was always running behind the large companies. But there are lots of small and mid-sized companies which are trying to still figure out. what they can do in terms of using AI. think that's where the talent needs to start focusing upon. Instead of running behind the very large corporates, they need to run and actually go and solve problems of the small and mid-sized companies and bring them up to speed in terms of productivity and using AI. I speak to lot of business leaders at Santiago and many of them are telling me that I don't know how to use AI or tech in my organizations and I need to really get onto it, but they don't have the time or the bandwidth or the skill set. Now what if these people actually, the talent goes and joins them? uh And it can work beautifully for you. uh If with your permission, Santiago, I'll just give you a very simple example of what we've done at Talent Corner. uh So we had a young intern called Manas who joined us as an AI intern. He was a tech guy, he was not getting a job and he said, I want to use AI at your organization. He helped us build a tool which would effectively screen 100 candidates in 30 seconds of time and allow us to look at the most effective candidates faster. This was done by a boy who was 20 years of age, fresh out of college, just had a keen interest in learning what AI could do and wanted to solve a problem. There you go. And then he got picked up at an organization because he could actually solve problems. Very interesting. Let's speak a little bit about technology and AI for recruiting. I want to follow up on the answer you just gave. We've been using for years, algorithm and machine learning and computers to screen candidates. um But now the candidates are doing the same thing. They are using AI to create their CVs, their resumes, and to. pass it through these algorithms. What's your take on this? Is that fair? Who started this AI battle? Because in the end, what I fear is that it's going to be machines creating resumes that are going to be checked by other machines saying, yes, it's a good resume or not. ah Who created this I don't know but someone is definitely very intelligent ah to crack this game. uh But yes I do understand that people are doing it differently. I am not going to say it is wrong or right. think they are it differently. They are doing it better and they are able to definitely get through our ATS. ah But that is great right. Whenever technology comes into picture Sometimes the value of human beings becomes even more amplified. am actually very grateful for AI because now our clients are willing to pay us because we are actually doing what we do best, screening candidates, bringing the human angle, bringing the sensitivity, the emotions, listening to people. uh This AI can't do. AI can't listen to people. They can't understand emotions. So I while AI will always create these shortcuts, uh as much as they do create these shortcuts, as much as they do create the easy to get through the first uh gatekeeper, uh there will always be the need of more and more humans to bring more sense to this entire process in the recruitment industry. So I'm really happy Santiago not complaining much about it. um Something that I've been reading of some people, again, it's a sample, it's a subset of people or articles that um companies are planning to automate end-to-end AI interviews almost up till the end to the choosing the candidate or offering the candidate. That's something that horrifies me. The simple concept that someone The motivation of someone interviewing with a robot, the entire process, it's something that I cannot comprehend. I'm a bit too old school, or what's your take on this? ah So I am old school as well Santiago and trust me on this one I don't think it's Everybody can be ambitious and they think that know bots can solve everything but I don't think so. I don't think uh you know at the end of the day human beings will respond to human being right and they will respond better. Now just think about what I'm saying is imagine if you had got an end-to-end bot which would create this podcast and you know and do the entire recording bit and deliver the podcast for you. Would it be the same experience? Right? It wouldn't. It never would be. It wouldn't be the same experience. And that's the same thing with with recruitments, with careers. For people, know, their jobs, their careers are actually the most important part of their journey. It forms one third of their lives. Right? Do you think people are going to be very okay interacting or trusting or believing a bot to get them the most important part of their lives. I don't think so and those people who are trying to build it, uh I want to ask them a question. What are you thinking and why are you thinking in that direction? You know, it's not going to work. You've tried it. There have been multiple bots which have tried interacting with human beings and we've always seen that the response has been diminishing. That's why, you know, human to human interaction is much higher. I'm not too worried about the end to end bit. I don't think it's going to come. And if it comes, I think it's going to miserably fail. So, Xeche, you're also big on, uh or you've expressed your opinions on freelancing. It seems we're going through some sort of like, or the hype of the gig economy. People, individuals, and more and more individuals in the U.S. are working for themselves, doing part-time roles, so-called fractional roles and these sort of things. How can companies and also people, humans, benefit from that model? So I think the freelance or the gig economy has got merits for both people. uh A lot of times uh organizations which are not very large in size are extremely wary of investing into innovations, into research and development. Because they don't have deep pockets. But is that necessary for a company? The answer is yes. Doing research, coming up with newer things for your company and for your customer is necessary. Right. And I think the gig economy is something that allows you to do that by keeping your costs restricted by making sure that you can pick up or identify or work on one innovation at a time without being committed to it for a long run. uh You can budget a certain amount of money for experimenting or research and then see if it's actually working for you or not. uh Also, happens is, know, Santiago business leaders like me, are obviously always thinking, right? And we have so many ideas or so many things or so many projects that we want to work for on. uh It's not easy to have the resources for working on all those projects together. But what a gig economy does is by limiting your budget, you can actually work on a number of projects with the same size of the pocket. and then see which one is looking more promising and invest more into that particular project. So at least in my case, I use it more like a innovation lab at my end. I give 10 different projects to 10 different gig workers. And then if I see something is showing more value, then I kind of, you know, amplify that idea and take it to the next level. Do you see a future where freelancers are 80 % of the workforce of a company and permanent employees are at 20 %? Do you think we will reach that point? No, I don't think that's going to happen because as human beings, are always looking at being more secure. are innate, know, our innate desire is to feel more secure. And I think the gig economy does not bring that element of security to people. ah The safety net is something I think a lot of human beings will look at, which a job brings to you. ah I don't think the gig economy is built for that. Together with, to complicate things a little bit more, AI and economy, we have a new generation of people, the Gen Z or Gen Z, that are uh joining the workspace and the job market. Not only joining, some of them are managers and leading already. And this is a generation that has different values. They are more fit for purpose. Do you see right now... a clash between the three generations that are uh forming the workforce, eggs like us, probably boomers still a few, some of them millennials and Gen Z. How are they mixing up? So let me tell you Santiago, it's a very difficult time. think bridging the gap or bridging the mindset between all three of them is very difficult because each one wants to stick to their own guns. ah Let's not forget that the Gen Z is actually, you know, the ones which are going to be a big part of our workforce in the very near future. I'm not talking about long term, I'm talking about next five to 10 years, they're going to be a substantial part of our workforce. and figuring it out in terms of what it means to actually work with Gen Z is not an option, it's a compulsion. ah So, think for us Millennials and the generation before us, ah we need to first reach an acceptance level that we can't stop trusting the Gen Z, we need to figure out what they work like and how they live their lives. We will need to take an effort. It will not happen automatically because this this generation works extremely differently. ah Do I think they are an awesome generation? The answer is yes. I think they're an awesome generation. They come with their with a very different thinking than we have. uh I've had a lot of struggle understanding them in the beginning. uh But I think I think I've done a reasonably good job in terms of figuring it out. And I think if you are patient, if you all invest some time in thinking about them, I think we will really get a lot of value from the Gen Z. then give us some tools, some of your pointers about what you learned because you have hired thousands of Gen Z and we are working all together now. What are your pointers to understand, integrate and work well with Gen Z? So I can tell you a few things that's really worked for me. uh I think when it comes to Gen Z, they want a lot of autonomy. They of course want to be told what is expected from them, but they want the autonomy to decide how they go about doing it. uh I don't think they are close to feedback. They are quite open to feedback, but they want to come out with the plan, the ideation themselves. They don't need to be told everything in terms of structure. ah what's worked for me is I've given, you know, the Gen Z a few ideas or, you know, direction in which I want or would like things to happen and then they've come up with better plans because I've given them the autonomy to come out with the plan. ah Second thing that has worked for me is uh you can't tell them what needs to be done and stop at that. you need to tell them why it would make an impact. Okay. What impact would their work make to them and give them the purpose for the same. Right. And unless the purpose is is you know defined very clearly they they really are not motivated. uh I think the whole the whole book about starting with the why is is more relevant in this context when you work with the Gen Z for sure. uh The third experience that I've had and this Santiago I think every person who's a business leader must understand is they need the feedback loop to close quickly. You need to give them feedback. You need to tell them if you like what they did and if you didn't like what they did and give them reasons. The more faster you do it, the more quicker you are with them, you will be able to get a lot of value from them. They are not okay with traditional setups. They want it to change. uh A lot of people tell me that the Gen Z doesn't really want to be managed. uh I don't agree with that. I think the Gen Z is okay to be managed. But they just don't want to be managed in the old way. They want to be managed differently. They want to be a part of the ecosystem. They want to grow faster. They want to be oh challenged. uh and they are okay. They are okay to put in 22 hours of a day if required as long as they are driven by purpose and they are given the flexibility and the autonomy to give their viewpoints. If they are not driven, then getting out four hours of the day also is very difficult from them. But if they driven and you kind of manage them well, then getting 22 hours also is great. And they would not complain. Let's move to the other side of the age spectrum, 40 and 50s. was talking to a very knowledgeable senior leader last week and he said to me, Santi, after 45, you go up or you go out. What do we do with the workforce, with people on the 40s, 45s, late 40s that has been working, performing for a company, either they don't want to go up. to climb the corporate ladder or the company ladder, also because the higher you go, the less positions are available. um But the company is saying, well, this guy's been here for 20 years. What do we do with these people? Okay, so there are again, I will only speak out of experience, but I believe there are two mindsets that need to change. Right. One is the mindset of the company, the employers, people like, you know, like me who need to be very clear that you can't let these people go. Right. These people are a lot of value because they come with a lot of strategic thinking ability. uh which I think the younger generation would not have it considering the fact that they don't have the experience that is required for the same. uh Again, the important conversation that needs to be had along with them is to ask them how can they create more value within the system? What are they willing to do to create more value? uh We've used uh the senior generation to mentor our young talent and they have been very effective at it. We have got them into the same room and paired them up to make sure that the strategic bend of mind or the patient explanation to the younger people is given by them. We've actually had to step away and I want to tell this to all leaders saying that please move away from the mindset that the experienced people are going to slow down your growth. They are not going to slow down your growth. Just they're just going to ensure that you don't fall off the cliff when you're speeding in your growth engine. Right. So just just use them as those guys who know where the cliff is and they will protect you. uh Please have open conversations with them. tell them that they need to, they don't need to be worried about shipping out, they just need to shape up. And shaping up is where you challenge them in terms of creating value because I think they also want to do it. I think a lot of them are also bored doing the same thing again and again. And when you tell them, listen, I don't want to let you go, but I want you to create more value within the organization, they will come up with some great ideas. Your group has hired around what, 25,000 people, even more. What are the three things, two or three things, you see in a candidate and you immediately say, well, this is a hire. This person goes to the next round or this person is going to be hired. So, oh in terms of my mindset, I look at people who are very positive. So, I like people who are very positive in a conversation, uh not critical, not negative, not complaining, uh you know, and I judge that on the basis of verbal cues and body language. So, my first tick mark is against, you for people who are positive. uh Two is I definitely look for people who have shown consistency. I am a big believer of consistency. think uh whatever deficit one has in terms of skill that can be compensated by doing work consistently. So, I think that's the second thing that I look out for people who have been doing something, who not given up, who stayed there for longer and have actually got a mindset of know of going the long run. So that's the second thing that I look for. uh And I think the third thing that I look for is how open they are in terms of coming up with new ideas and accepting new ideas. I think that's one thing that's very important. We don't want people who are not willing to experiment. We want people who are open to think, right? And as long as they are open to do that and are willing to accept newer ideas, newer generation and not, you know, not be cars to anybody. I think that's the kind of people I like to hire at my end. Hard skills versus soft skills. um These days, and this is a conversation I have with a lot of colleagues constantly, should you hire the uh Python guru or someone that is curious enough to learn a little bit of Python and other things as well? What's your weightage when you're going to hire on skills versus attitude? Uhhh... 70-30 more towards attitude. So I'm a lot on soft skills. I think people can learn. I believe a lot on this the attitude bit. That's what I look for and I'm very confident that today if someone's attitude is great they can learn out of a YouTube channel. So I will always go for soft skills more high and give a 70 % weightage to that one. Let's do five quick rapid fire questions that you'll answer in 30 seconds or less. Are you ready? Yes, absolutely. Number one, what is one interview question you believe reveals more than a resume you can? Tell me about how you grew up. Number two, should leaders ever hire family members? Is this a recipe for disaster? 100 % higher your family member. They are the ones who have a lot of vested interest. Works great in India. I don't know about the rest of the world, but works great in India. Number three, what's one productivity tool you personally cannot live without? manage your time really well, use as many tools as possible so that you can maximize every minute of your day. So Microsoft Outlook works great for me. Pick up your tool. 4. What mistake do you see job seekers repeat again and again? deciding on a job change only for the money and not for the opportunity that it brings to them. And number five, would you rather hire a high performer with trust issues or a loyal average performer? That's a tough one, but a loyal average performer. Trust issues is a big problem. If it's trust, don't think people can, you you can work along with people. Now, um one question, a personal question for you, Roches. You've built a nationwide business. You're still a family man. You are very much a family person. Many founders and entrepreneurs fail at balance. Their lives literally fall apart, their private lives. What are non-negotiables in your routine, and how do you strike a balance managing a company that hires 10,000 people a year? uh uh So non-negotiable for me is my health. The first thing in the morning I want to focus on my health and the second is my time with my children. I think they will grow up and you know when they at a time when I need them they will not need me so I want to spend maximum time with them so I don't negotiate on these two time slots and I put them on top priority out there. uh I want to recommend something that I do. m When I draw out my calendar, the first thing that I do is I put all my personal engagements out there. What matters most to me, what makes me happy goes in first and then everything else gets filled up with work. If listeners can remember just one principle from your 23 years in business, what do you hope it is? One principle. Stay extremely consistent. That's worked beautifully for me and I don't see any reason why it will not work for anybody else. Let's wrap this up for people listening to Ruchesh in India and outside India who feels stuck in their job, the job that they don't love. What is the first action you recommend they take this week? uh Don't take any radical steps of quitting your job. First, make sure that your bills are getting paid because that's not what you want to be at. But try to figure out uh skills that you can shape up with uh which can help you to get a job which you love. Talk to people, network with people, find a lot of people on LinkedIn who can get into conversations with you and guide you because there are actually a lot of people who are very smart and can guide you and are willing to talk. Thank you so much, Rochesh. Listen, thanks again for an amazing conversation around the job market and the future of work. If I take one thing away is that I probably need to stay with a very flexible and growth mindset because things are changing super quickly. Today you teach us that regardless of generation, the age, the technology. It's humanity and values what prevails. So thanks so much for that, Rachele, and thanks for being with us today. It has been a great conversation in Santiago. Thank you so much.