ProductiviTree: Cultivating Efficiency, Harvesting Joy

Why Doing More Stops Working, Systematic Subtraction with Nell 3D

• Santiago Tacoronte • Season 2 • Episode 56

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Nell Derick Debevoise Dewey is a Subtraction Strategist, keynote speaker, Forbes Senior Contributor, and creator of the Lead in 3D framework. Harvard-trained in psychology and educated by horses, Nell helps high-performing, big-hearted leaders find success that feels as good as it looks. With a career spanning global humanitarian work across four continents, elite education at Harvard, Columbia Business School, Cambridge, and Università di Roma III, she brings a rare blend of systems thinking, compassion, and real-world leadership experience. As faculty at EQUUS and co-founder of the Purposeful Growth Institute, Nell specialises in equine-assisted learning and purpose-driven leadership development. Her core frameworks — Stop–Drop–Roll and 3D Leadership (ME, WE, WORLD) — give leaders a practical way to do less, matter more, and lead without burning out.

In this conversation, Nell Derick Debevoise Dewey discusses the concept of subtraction as a strategy for enhancing productivity and well-being. She emphasizes the importance of reducing unnecessary tasks and focusing on what truly matters, drawing insights from her experiences and the natural world, particularly horses. The discussion covers the societal inclination towards 'more' and how this can lead to burnout, the principle of diminishing returns, and practical steps for implementing subtraction in daily life. Nell also addresses the challenges of corporate culture and the need for a shift in mindset towards systems thinking.

Speaker Links

Here's the 90 day guestpass for your listeners to come check out the Daily Subtraction Practice, on me: https://nell3d.substack.com/guestpass

Website: nell3d.com

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nell3d/

CTA Link: https://nell3d.kit.com/stopdroproll (free Stop–Drop–Roll one-pager)

Recorded Date and Location

Date: 19/02/2026 

Guest Location: Greenwich, CT, United States





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Nell 3D, welcome to Productiviti-Tree! Thank you so much, Santi. I'm thrilled to be here. Now you are a subtraction strategist. Most productivity advice is about adding more tools, more tech, more pomodoros, more things. What made you go in the opposite direction? So actually, if I'm being honest, it was a Friday morning in August two years ago and I was driving to the trainer to build muscle because I'm like perimenopausal and we have to build muscle, right? That's what we have to do. So I'm driving to the trainer, it's beautiful, and I glance down at my phone. I don't even touch it, not that I never touch it because I've been known to text and drive. I glance down at my phone, drift out of my lane and go head on into a 20 ton landscaping truck. Yeah. Amen, hallelujah. The angels were in full effect and myself and the people in the truck walked away unharmed. So good news. But it was a literal impact on how I live my life and do my work. You know, and so I had, I was in a great place. I was aligned, I was inspired. I was really on fire with the work I was doing. And I've been purpose-driven since I was young. But if we do too much or even just think too much, I saw personally firsthand quite scarily that it is dangerous, not only to our physical well-being, but also to people around us. And so that was a really undeniable fork in the road for me to stop this adding, piling on more and more and Why do we think that adding in general, at work, why do we think why so embedded that adding is better than subtracting? Yeah, you know, there's a really powerful infrastructure behind more. The Industrial Revolution was like, we are so efficient, we are so smart, we have these production lines, and now we have automation, and now we have AI, and it can go all night and produce more, and now it's quantum, so it's essentially infinite, and Moore's law, like, this is our economy. And so... It's not that we're silly or missing something obvious or greedy. It's that our global system from the US, you're welcome, here I sit, and just outside New York, the capital of it all, has built this infrastructure to reward us and incentivize us to do more, to make more money, to meditate more, to be more empathetic, more of everything. So it's really profound just in a societal level in terms of where we are right now. My background is psychology, and so I'll add that there also is a very natural human aversion to loss, right? We are much more scared of losing something than eager to get something more. So we hold tight to what we have acquired and look for more always. Is the incumbent generation, Gen Z, millennials, thinking about difference about this? See, I get the chance and I consider myself lucky to be reverse mentored by a lot of um Gen Z and they seem to look differently about work and adding. Is it a fact? It's thousand percent true that they are looking differently at work and I'm with you like, amen, hallelujah, let that influence come, right? And how can I learn from them? So I absolutely agree with that. Unfortunately, I think the piece that has not yet been broken is the more, more, more, right? And so I'm skipping ahead a little bit, but I loved your kind of spicy provocation, whether the self-care industrial complex has actually just shifted this. desperate quest for more to a different area of our lives. And I think you're absolutely spot on. I see that happening all the time, right? So maybe they are a little bit less willing or eager to spend, you know, sleep nights in the office, right? Again, in the consulting sector, finance, that's kind of the story. And for better or worse, it's still, for worse, it's still happening to some degree. But many fewer young professionals are willing to do that. But... They're, again, it's like more meditation and more cold plunge and more keto diets. So yes, they have rounded out their pursuits to some extent, but it's still this more, more, more approach. Well, you were educated by horses. You have a long story with those beautiful animals. What did they teach you that you can transfer to leadership that no business school can? Yeah, it's so much. And so the headline, the really important thing that people can take away today is that they conserve energy. And this is not because they have a productivity coach or they listen to these fabulous podcast episodes of Productivi-Tree They are evolutionarily evolved, right? Horses are prey animals. So a lot of times if people aren't familiar, they think, they're so big and they could bite me or kick me. They're kind of scary. But they're out in the wild as prey. right, to mountain lions or other cats. And so they know, they have learned over billions of years of evolution, that they cannot waste a single calorie doing anything that is not necessary. Because every calorie they spend is one less calorie they have to literally survive and get away from a predator who might come along. And so the method that they have moved through life with so successfully is that they understand a desired end, right? I need to get water to drink or keep my full young horse away from this storm or keep the herd moving through to new grass, whatever it might be. They understand that goal and then they identify the least possible action likely to get them to that goal. And they start there. only adding effort or escalating if they need to to achieve the desired goal. And so I invite leaders and young professionals and job seekers and any of us who want to make something happen in the world to sit back for a moment and imagine a project or a conversation with a colleague or a loved one. Think about the desired goal and think about the minimum thing we could do that might achieve that. And especially for the ambitious, caring, hardworking, impact-seeking people that I think your audience is made up of, that's not where we usually start. We over-deliver. And whether that's in a good way or a bad way, right? If we want to impress somebody, we buy the flowers, we overwork, we stay up late, we send 20 emails, we add 72 attachments and appendices to the deck. Which, sometimes, there's a time and place. I'm not opposed to ambition. or hard work. But sometimes we know they don't read the attachments or the appendix. And so was it really a good use of time and energy? Yeah, and so that's the horse magic that especially, right, we're just dawning in fire horse year. And so I really want to emphasize that the deep wisdom of this energy is not about guns ablaze and galloping into your goals and your work. That's not authentic fire horse energy. It is intense. intentional, directed fire and strength using as little energy as is necessary for the desired goal. I love it. Can we speak for a second about one of my favorite principles, the principle of diminishing results? I'd love you to explain it for our audience in simple terms, but also I'd love to know what the principle of diminishing returns looks for high achievers who are checking more and more boxes and continue to grow the effort curve. How can they use the principle to be more productive? Yeah, it's a favorite one because it's an economic law, right? This isn't like my opinion. It's not woo woo. It's just an economic law. And the way that I think most of us have been taught it maybe that will start just to level set is imagine a farmer who grows things. And so the farmer has land, right, where these trees grow and he has seeds to grow this plants, whatever they are. And then he himself or his family or kids or his employees harvest. the things when they grow. Let's call them apples. And so if he thinks, gosh, you know, we need to make more apples. There's a lot of demand for apples, or I need more money, or both. He might lease another plot of land. But if he just expands his land and doesn't buy more seeds or hire more people to harvest the apples, that land will just sit empty and not do what he wanted. Right? And so the idea is that if you just add in one dimension, add land, but you don't grow holistically, eventually you hit the ceiling of diminishing returns, right? You are not getting any more apples because you just added more land, but you didn't plant seeds or hire anyone to catch the apples. So that's the basic premise. And how that shows up for high achievers is that we pour ourselves into work, right? Work, work, work, work, work. I'll give back later. then I'll have enough to be a responsible parent or a generous donor or whatever, but work, work, work, work, work. And unfortunately, the curve flattens. At first, especially early in our career, that shows up maybe really great. We're young. We can handle long days and long nights. More senior people recognize our effort and talent and reward us for that. Maybe we get promoted quickly. But at a certain point, there's nowhere else to go. Maybe you're not old enough to have a more senior role. There's no chance that you can be, let's call it client director at 27. Just demographically, you can't be presented that way in front of clients. You haven't had time to have the wisdom. It just doesn't work. And so you hit the ceiling of diminishing returns. But again, what has worked is doing more. And so when it feels like it's not working, we do more. And it still doesn't work, we do more. And that's when you lead to this burnout or frustration. The fix, which I learned very personally, is this approach of 3D success and leadership. And the three dimensions of a whole life are me, my holistic well-being, so my intellectual, social, spiritual, all my ways of being well. We, so my team and my organization, absolutely matters, as does my family, my personal we. whether that's blood relatives or chosen friends, whatever. But the we is the next dimension. And finally, world, not in a I will cure cancer and be Mother Teresa kind of way, but I will get very specific and clear about my world that I care about having an impact. And when we invest in this three-dimensional way, we escape that ceiling, right? Because we have this three-dimensional opportunity to invest in the land and the seeds and the harvest, or the harvesters. And all of a sudden now we can improve our returns, find more satisfaction, and get to that more sustainable version of success. Do you think there's a moment, or there will be, I don't think it's there yet, or a tipping point where leaders will realize that the more effort, more output operating system has generally stopped working for them? Yes, we're certainly not there yet. I think the irony is that our technology is there, right? So we have these quantum potentials. ah But I think even now how we're seeing the AI conversation, the paradigm shift hasn't happened. That's what this is, is a paradigm shift from linear industrial era thinking to systems thinking. And so there's beautiful writing and work about the polycrisis by several academics and thinkers and theorists. um Yuan Yuan Ang is a professor specifically at Johns Hopkins who writes some beautiful stuff about the polycrisis and the polytunity. And so the idea there is that there is so much right now happening, right, which listeners are probably not shocked by, but economic uncertainty and transformation, AI, political disruption and violence, inter-societal, you know, swings and contrast and conflict in the US, but also other places. And they're all interrelated. And so we can't just say, you know, how are we going to avoid the next pandemic and worry about public health? It's like, well, it depends on the economic situation. It depends on the political will and the geopolitical, you know, peace and agreements. And so we have these interrelated things that can't be solved with this linear do more one thing at a time siloed thinking. have to make the paradigm shift to systems thinking. And I don't know when that will happen. I think. I would like to suggest that the need for it is quite obvious if we actually tune in and ask how things are going. It's not good on an individual micro or a societal or a global level. change is a funny thing and it can't be predicted. It happens in its own time, right? It happens slowly, slowly and then all at once, I think. Very interesting topic. Do you think that this change, which I also believe and I fully agree with you, it's coming. We just don't know when. Will it be more like a revolution or do you think that the new generations will come with a different mindset and that will slowly embed a different working culture for those to come next? I tend to think the latter. I hope for evolution, not revolution. And it depends on leaders who are in seats right now and coming to seats of power to get a bit more courageous than what we're seeing to allow some of that evolution to happen rather than trying desperately to cling to the old ways and to hold this new wisdom down. So TBD. Nell walk us practically through systematic subtraction. How does it work? How can people put it in motion? So the first piece is just an acceptance or an acknowledgement or even a remembering that we are systems. We are not linear. Our careers are not linear. Our companies, our families are all systems. And we know this to be true. We are bones and brains and blood and it interacts, right? No one can reject that. But we have been schooled out of it. And so we have to just remember that fact. Systems thinking is a beautiful and nerdy and deep. practice and theory. If people want to go there, I certainly invite you to do it. It's fascinating. But you don't need to. You just have to say, you know what, I get that. I'm not, you know, it's not linear that I exactly sleep this much then I do this. I'm not a machine. I'm a system. So that's the first piece. Got it? We good? We're a system? Great. The three steps practically to subtract that I suggest, because we've talked a little bit about the fear around subtraction, and I want to really emphasize this is not like the four-hour work week kind of a gimmick, or like a let them kind of like flippant, like whatever, right? And if those messages have worked for people, I'm so glad. Let them work for you in the ways that they do. And what I have seen in my life and the other smart people that I work with is that's not actually satisfying. It doesn't actually lead to change because you kind of hit a wall pretty quickly. So there's a more nuanced version. The first step is stop. And what I mean here is not to go meditate on the mountain with the monks. If you can do that and you want to do that, please, by all means. But that's not stopping in my definition. What I mean by stop is stop in your seat at work, at the kitchen table, in bed, wherever you are, and really get present with yourself. So tune out the outside noise, which is very noisy and again has a really robust infrastructure to keep your attention. So this is not easy, and you should not feel silly when it feels hard. But stop and get some data about how it's really going, right? Globally in your life or in a specific relationship or in your job search, whatever the context is. Maybe that's, I've been sick for three months and I can't get over it. Okay, that's data, right? What's happening? Maybe it's, I literally am falling asleep in meetings with my boss and it's humiliating. That's data. I'm not getting this promotion that all the things should suggest that I'm getting. That's data. So I don't know what it's going to be for you. This is not a prescriptive method. It's a lens, and you need to make it your own. But the important thing is to stop. Quiet the outside noise and get some data, qualitative, quantitative, internal, external, about whatever thing you're working on. Then we can drop. And this is the part of subtraction. Yes, we are going to experiment with letting go of something. It's not forever. It's not dramatic. It's not extreme. So the example I love to use is like, if there's a recurring meeting where you are on that invite, it's 45 minutes every Tuesday, and you haven't spoken up in the last several weeks, you don't have any decision-making control or power in that meeting, and an AI summary comes out now. within a few hours after the meeting with the summary of what happened and any action steps. Maybe you experiment with not going to that meeting next Tuesday. If you miss the meeting and you're sad not to be there, please be my guest and go back the following Tuesday. I'm not in, you know, this is not a permanent embargo. You don't even have to deny the calendar invite. Just try not going. Right, so these are the kinds of experiments that I'm talking about with subtraction. It's not like blow up your life and change your kid's school or get a new job. It's just like, what could we play with? And by doing that, by dropping something, you free up some energy, which is what powers the final step of role. And this is where we connect the dots, right? So this is where the power and the leverage of systems thinking really comes into play, because we start making sense of the things we are doing so that those efforts might multitask. Right? Remember, now it's not just work, work, work. We have three dimensions of our lives. And so we're able to see that by not going to that meeting, I don't resent my boss, for example, who I think made me come to that meeting. I can catch up on emails during that hour, for example, if that feels like a valuable thing to do, and actually leave the office at 5.15 or 7 or whenever it is to get home. and spend dinner not finishing my email inbox tasks, but being present with my kid, or with the documentary that is really good for my intellectual stimulation, or the crayons that I'm gonna practice scribbling with, because I'm a creative person and I don't have that outlet. Right? And so it's not strictly about doing less, per se. It's about getting rid of the things that don't serve what actually matters to us, and filling in with things that do. And so we are doing less or maybe doing the same amount, but actually having much more impact and more satisfaction through this approach. This is a great segue into the next couple of questions because. In corporate What is rewarded is the person who's always on. And this kind of subtractions. In many cases, I've heard many, many comments about people subtracting in a negative way from either the managers or other people that have to collaborate with him with them. It could sound and people will interpret as you are advocating for mediocrity, this engagement. I read something today very interesting about the comfort zone being put. Oh, he or she is in the comfort zone. He stopped attending the Tuesday meetings. How do you prevent? Substruction. From damaging your career. Yeah. So again, this is not prescriptive, right? I need every every person here needs to be their own guide and steward of their success and safety, frankly, right? In the US, your job is your health insurance. So it's no joke, right, to lose jobs in a world where there's a lot of layoffs. There's a slightly better safety net in Europe, but still many people require their wages to pay rent. So I do not want to minimize that. It's very clear to me that this needs to be used with discernment in your own life. And I really want to push back on that initial premise that what gets rewarded is being always on. Because actually, I invite, and look, cultures are different, right? Where cultures are different, so there's different things in different places. But compare scenario A, right? The person who emails back, yup, I'll be there, great, who accepts the calendar invite right away. Maybe that gets noticed, right? And again, in some places, I recognize that that may have some value. Versus person B, who may not be first to respond to the invite. But when they respond to the invite says, yep, is it helpful if I print out agendas? Or even just, I'll bring printed agendas so we can all have that. Or I also read this article that was really helpful to this discussion, including it here in case that's useful. Smart managers can discern simply being on and responsive, which I don't disagree with you has been lionized, from a present, thoughtful, appropriate participation, which actually adds value. So the hope is that we can all get to working in contexts which understand and celebrate column B. I understand that there may be places where some people are maybe stuck in column A, but I still want to really push that and invite a true stop. Because honestly, it's obviously lazy management or leadership to consider that as valuable. But it's also lazy ambition. It's lazy contribution to just be excited about firing off the email rather than spending an hour in the morning meditating or reading deep thinking or thinking for yourself about competitors and clients and data and then showing up to the email thread 60 minutes later, which unless you're a heart surgeon, 60 minutes haven't changed anything ever. and coming with a thoughtful answer. Yeah, so I do, I get people's context and again, I can't fix that for your specific manager, but I do really invite you to push back a little bit on what always on looks like versus always productive or contributing. What does the day of a person that is actively practicing subtraction look like? Or how does the day go to bed? Yeah, still a work in practice, right? I am very much practicing this myself. It's been so fun leading this hundred day practice, which your listeners are very welcome to join. We'll share that detail later. And it's been humbling, you know? Look, I am very busy. Like one of my best metrics for how well I'm doing at this subtraction theory is how many times I bump into drawers and cabinets in my house and how many cruises I have on my thigh. And when I got home from a trip last Friday, I hit my head on a cabinet door so hard that the cabinet door now doesn't open because my head realigned it on the hinge. So, not your guru. And I absolutely am working it into my day. And how it looks, again, it's busy. It's not that I'm doing less. Like, I am ambitious, I'm hungry, I'm curious, I'm passionate about this work, and I see a real... need to help people get it. So there's a lot I want to do in a day. The difference in these few years that I've been practicing this is that I have a pretty constant lens. about this value, potential of subtraction. And so, you know, to use the example of this practice that I'm leading, it's a lot of work to write an essay, to record an interview or a video, to extract that into daily prompts, to pick a song to match every day, to format it, to put it all up there, right? It's a lot of work. And so I don't end up being able to do a lot less. And candidly, people on the other side don't have time. to read all of that from me. So there's this interesting thing of I'm doing all this work and to avoid. And patterns help and routines help and commitment is important. I committed to do this thing. So for these two months, that's been my emphasis. You're catching me on the verge of a subtraction of realizing that a topic a week is crazy overload. We're talking about power. That's like a person's whole career. So I certainly don't need to only spend six days on it, right? And so I'm subtracting this commitment that I made to do one a week, and it's gonna be, I haven't even decided it's so ripe, but it's gonna be either one a month or maybe two a month or one and a half, right? It's gonna, I'm gonna ratchet down that initial high octane commitment I made because I'm seeing that it's blocking me from doing other things. It's keeping me really kind of crazy busy and I'm not performing at my best. So to column A and B, am I always on and getting the things done and they're good? Yes. But are they as good as they could be if I were taking a little more time to re-listen to the interview and really pull the interesting pieces? And so that's the life of subtraction is just this constant awareness, a default, rather than, shoot, it's not working, what more should I be doing? I should probably hire an SEO expert to... What if I did less by 50 %? How much better could it be? And how would that better serve my audience and my own well-being? Is subtraction close to prioritization or is more about goal setting? It's not prioritization. It doesn't fix that. You've still got to be, know, prioritization is still one of the keys to success 1000%. I think that comes next once you've done the work to really distill what you're doing. And I wouldn't say it's goal setting either. It's distillation. So I've heard people say that knowledge is accumulation. I know more things. I've learned more things. Whereas wisdom is about distillation. I think similarly success, as we traditionally consume, is about accumulation, titles, money, power, direct reports, clients. Whereas fulfillment is about distillation. And so subtraction is that it's about getting focused and clear to direct your fire, your energy, like a wise horse, toward the things that actually matter. And then you can prioritize among these because there's still too much to do in 24 hours a day. Nel, let's use all your power into five rapid fire questions. Number one, one thing every leader should subtract from their week immediately. Unhelpful thinking. Like. You walk out of the meeting and you're like, oof, did I say that right? Did they roll their eyes at me? Did I overstep? It's not on your to-do list, but let me tell you, it takes a lot of energy out of your day. So, boom, let go of that. Number two, what is the biggest myth about productivity that needs to die? More is more. Number three, what's harder, learning to let go or learning to say no? This is a really tough one. They're both really hard for ambitious, caring leaders who want to make the world a better place. But learning to let go is harder, which is why we should get really good at saying no, right? It's that loss aversion that I mentioned before that psychologically is just deep in us. And so once we have something, even if it's a calendar invite to a meeting we hate, it's really hard to let go of it. Whereas if we just... have the strength to say no in the first place, it helps down the road. So yeah, get good at saying no. Number four, one book every leader should read on sustainable success. Man's Search For Meaning. Victor Frankl, it's just a classic and really you can't unsee it. Indeed. Number five, if you could ban one leadership having tomorrow, what would it be? I banned this because it was banned from me by my staff about 10 years ago is This will be easy. I you can't call anything easy anymore. Because they'd be like, this will be quick, or this will be easy. And they were like, no, no, no. That's banned. You can't say that anymore. Right? just, can I ask you just for a quick favor? Not fair. Shame on me, I said something similar to someone today about a project. It should be a piece of cake for you, I said. Okay, listen, let's give some practical advice. Let's wrap this up. For people that are listening that are overwhelmed, have a lot of projects, lot of work, meetings, uh their own personal lives. They are feeling exhausted, quietly exhausted. What is the one thing they can do already this week? So I'll give you two options, because again, it's not prescriptive and it depends a little bit where you are in that exhaustion. And the first is simply an idea to play with and try on. And that's this notion of a system. And just to consider, what would it be like if I recognize or remember that I am not a one-dimensional linear supply chain project? I am a system. And my company is a system, right? And just play with that. And again, if they're kind of fellow nerds and they want to read, read Danela Meadows On Systems Thinking by all means, if that feels like a manageable extra task to add, that's definitely helpful just to get that understanding that systems thinking is how we need to approach life. The second, so that's a more passive, right, kind of learning thought exercise. The second more active is to practice your flavor of stops. Again, it's different. Maybe it's running. Maybe it's while you're cooking. Maybe it is a meditation practice. Maybe it's staring out at the sky and counting leaves, right? I don't know. We all are wired a little bit differently. But just practice that muscle of for 30 seconds in the morning or 30 minutes if you can get it, right? Whatever little bit size, bite size pieces through the day and just practice. stopping and being with yourself. It's not always easy or comfortable because we are muting a lot of moral injury and trauma or just discontent or boredom or tired, you know, fatigue. So just practice stop. Don't even get to the drop experiments yet. Just build that muscle of where and how can I actually pause? and check in with myself because that really is without that the drop experiments are ill-informed and they probably won't go well. So truly just be happy with step one. How can people know more about what you do? You're thinking, how can they get in touch with you? How can they connect? So Subtract to Succeed is my newsletter, which is run on Substack, and that is where I am doing all this prolific writing, soon to become a teeny bit less prolific, but there's a big archive there. That's where the 100-day daily practice is happening, and I will include a guest pass so that any of your listeners can come join us. There's no, it's evergreen. You can start on day 33, you can start on day one, whatever you want. But everything is there, and there's, every Monday, there's a bunch of very specific topics and tips. to try to make this practical to your point. So that's what I recommend if you really want to get into the ideas. I'm very easy to find on LinkedIn because of my long, long name, and I'm very promiscuous and in contact there. So happy to write back and engage with whatever questions folks might have there as well. Thank you so much, Nell, and thank you for the insightful conversation and for all your energy and explaining us what subtraction is. I'm taking a few things away. One of them is to be intentional, like horse and ox. And the second one is to learn how to stop. I I've recovered a lot of people. It's very hard to stop even for a second during the day. So I'm taking this too. I'm taking a third one. I was a bit sad to hear that you said that The Four Hours Work Week was a gimmick. It's a very important book for me. And I still hope that Tim Ferriss will be a guest of us one of these episodes. But we clear this one after the episode, if you don't Super fair. us today. It was lovely having you. Thank you so much, Santi. Total delight. Great questions, great conversation.