Stop Using Guilt: The Productive Way to Go Green Josh Dorfman

Josh Dorfman shares insights on environmental innovation, the realities of green practices in business, and how technology and human behavior can drive sustainable change. Discover practical strategies, industry trends, and the mindset shift needed for a greener future.

Guest Links
https://getsuper.cool/newsletter/
https://www.linkedin.com/in/dorfmanjosh/
https://www.youtube.com/@getsupercool
https://www.fastcompany.com/user/josh-dorfman

Transcript

0:31

Josh, welcome to Productivity. Thank you so much. Such a pleasure to be here. When did you realize that people would not change just because something is better for the planet, Josh? That would have been about 20 years ago. And I had not grown up as an environmentalist. I had become an environmentalist after living in China for a couple of years in a whole random sequence of events that led me to be a bicycle lock executive on the mainland in the mid 1990s, a billion people riding bicycles. And I thought, wow, this is a really tremendous opportunity. And I was working for an American company at the time called Kryptonite, had the, you know, a bicycle lock stronger than Superman made of Kryptonite. We opened a factory in Southern China. I was helping with that side of the business as well. And the man who ran the factory, the Chinese entrepreneur who we were partnering with, I was in his car. his Mercedes, we got to this parking lot of a restaurant where we were going to celebrate this deal. And before we went in, he said, Josh, look, my Mercedes is the biggest Mercedes of all the Mercedes in the parking lot. And he was right. And this was still communist China, 1997, all these Mercedes, a lot of Hong Kong money flowing into Southern China. But I thought in that moment, my God, you're just like us Americans. You want more bigger. And his chest had swelled up. And I thought, will it mean when there's a billion car drivers in China, I don't know anything about climate change, but that was the moment that that awareness hit me. And then I went through about. A transition, I would say, or an awakening to really understand issues around environment and climate. That made me more of an activist, which really just mostly led to my brother saying things like, here comes my older brother to make me feel bad about myself again. But no one was really changing their behavior. And ultimately in 2004, I launched my first company to try and sell modern design, stylish, sustainable products that were also eco-friendly. no one, I wouldn't have to scold anyone and maybe they might make some change. So you went from interest into environment and environmental and then that realization in China. But then at some point you started to build what you lazy ways of being environmental. Explain us that. So yes, so in that transformation where again, that realization that here I was so concerned about the environment, about climate change. I remember when I came home from China, so I grew up just outside of New York City in the suburbs of New York City. So was in my mid 20s. My mom. and I went into New York City to go to the theater, do something nice, spend some time. And here I was walking down the streets of Manhattan, looking up at these apartment buildings or office buildings that were empty, probably office buildings at like nine o'clock at night. And I remember saying like, why are all the lights on? You know, no one's there. And I remember my mom looking at me and being like, you might need some therapy, my son. And that could have been true, but yet it was like I was in this very activist consulting phase and I realized again that I just my fear and frustration was not changing anyone's behavior. And so in 2005, I created like the diametrically opposite type of environmental conversation called the Lazy Environmentalist, which was also recognizing some behaviors about myself. I mentioned I had started this eco-friendly uh retail company, which turned into a modern design sustainable furniture company. I was very committed to selling these types of products and yet my first employee in that business, end of 2004, on her last day working for me, really called me out for being a terrible environmentalist. She was like, you're selling all this product. but you're always in the shower, you barely recycle, you're like a giant hypocrite, what is your deal? And I took that to heart, wrote a blog called The Lazy Environmentalist about myself. It's like, you know this is actually true. I take long showers, I do my best thinking in the shower, I need a really wonderful low flow shower head so I can have great water pressure and use less energy and less heat and less water. But I'm not going to change my behavior. I care, I'm lazy, I'm a lazy environmentalist. there's millions and millions of Americans who probably feel like I do, if the green choices were easy and stylish and at the right price and fit our lives and convenient to make, we'll do them all day long. But if they're not, we're not going to. So let's make it easy. Let's be lazy environmentalists and let's change the world. What in that in that uh stage of your career life and mission, can you take us to a couple of things that um didn't work at all that you said, my God, that's never gonna work. uh Yeah, a lot of things, most things are never going to work. know, the lazy environmentalist in its culmination became a reality TV show where I was the host and I would take, we thought like professionals, people at the height of their work on a journey to see if we could like quote, green them. And I remember doing the show with an exterminator, right? The person who shows up at your house to kill the bugs. And I brought this exterminator on the show and I said, look, don't you feel terrible? You're spraying all of these pesticides, all of these insecticides, basically all of this poison in the backyard where the children are playing and the pets are running. Like, don't you feel absolutely awful about yourself? And this guy was like, you don't understand. I have to kill the bugs. You know, and so I was like, all right. let me take you on a journey. Let's find other ways to kill the bugs, right? Without all the poison. So we would try things with like lasers and you know, all sorts of, you know, toxic free ways to kill bugs. None of them worked. And you know, that was some of the, the setup of the show is that, you know, we were on a mission. Very often the solutions didn't work. That was one. I'll give you one other example. We were trying. It was actually a pretty good show. This was the pilot episode of the TV show. think this is why we got the TV show green lighted and got to make two seasons. It was in Los Angeles and we were trying to green a delivery service, right? They had all these fleets of cars going out to deliver all kinds of stuff. And this was also a time like 2008, 2009 gas prices were very high. So the way that we were going to do that was not to go buy like a Toyota Prius or change the car. We brought in the world's leading expert in something called hypermiling. Hypermiling is the set of techniques that you can use to make any car far more fuel efficient. And what that means is you do things like turn off all the air conditioning, right? Like if you're exiting a freeway, you go into neutral and coast down the ramp. You do all of these different techniques to try and extend your mileage. So The setup for the show was we had this delivery driver. She had to deliver a frozen uh ice cream birthday cake, but she had to use all of these techniques. So no air conditioning. had to drive slower on the freeway, had to be in neutral. And so you can imagine in very warm Los Angeles with no air conditioning, the car is starting to heat up. She's like, she's trying to be fuel efficient. The ice cream cake is starting to melt. And so that was a fail. That did not work. It made for very good TV, but it was a solution for the environment that simply was not practical. Josh, um environment is a bit of a roller coaster in the last few decades. We have gone from big investments to policies that set us many years back. It seems that... We only remember environment when something, it's event-based or event-driven. There is a fire, there is a tornado, tsunami, a hurricane, and then we worry about this. Where are we right now? I see the US this accelerating a little bit on environmental policies, things around fossil fuels. Where are we now in the environment roller coaster? That's, I agree with that assessment broadly that it can feel like a roller coaster. What is very exciting to me today is that we are in a different moment in terms of the adoption of solutions to climate change. And that can be seen really in three different ways. If you look at the number of climate technology companies in the last decade who have raised growth stage funding rounds. So they've made it out of the laboratory, out of their initial pilot phase where they're doing small kind of proof point projects to commercial scale. It's about 2000 companies. Of those 2000 companies, some have gone out of business for sure, but many are in market with solutions that are actually cutting carbon, boosting profits for their customers or cutting costs and making quality life better. On top of that in 2024 and then again in 2025, global investment in clean energy technology topped $2 trillion. It's now double fossil fuel investment and it's at numbers that we've never seen before. And that is EV, solar, wind, nuclear, well, some nuclear, geothermal. ah then if you look at the number of cities around the globe that have adopted climate action plans, it's grown exponentially. over 13,000 cities today and they're united and linked and sharing information. So this is really spreading the, you know, and then on top of that, you even have, you know, some folks who can be controversial, like Elon Musk recently talked about wanting to purchase $3 billion worth of solar equipment from China because he, like a lot of others understand that the only way that we are going to be able to scale all the energy for data centers in America is through solar. And he believes that we can install 100 gigawatts of solar in America. So you have this message coming from a lot of different places that this is not going away. This is here. The media may be pulling back from some of its coverage. And I agree with you. The media tends to kind of shine a spotlight on climate change when there's a massive storm, right? And we lose power and then we have that moment. But the solution economy and the low carbon economy and climate innovation is spreading like never before. I'm very glad to hear that, Josh. And thank you for bringing these numbers. Now that those numbers give us the scale of these for people that is not in this world. Listen, this is a productivity podcast, okay? We gravitate always around productivity. And I want to tackle productivity. and environmentalism from different angles and different levels. I'm going to start with the lower one. When I go with my mom to the supermarket, we go to do grocery, okay? And we go to the shelf, we see the green product, the environmental product, we see the other product, and my mom will normally say, The green one is always much more expensive, but it's the same. Now without entering in the judgment of my mom, if it's the same product, it's better or worse. Is it true that environmentally friendly products are more expensive by nature than the rest? I think that there is truth in that. I think there are certain instances where that's true. other instances where it's not true. If you're going to talk about what may be on the shelf in a grocery store, if you're going to talk about, let's say, ingredients in a tomato sauce, right, you could have your conventional, let's say, not organic, and then you could have your organically grown tomatoes in your tomato sauce. There's plenty of research emerging that the organically grown products have antioxidants. uh So maybe actually better for you uh that are higher quality ingredients. If something is higher quality and premium, it will come at a premium price. If there are instances as well where things on the shelf that are, let's say green or eco, uh might be really good products, but they may not have the economies of scale. They might be smaller brands that simply can't reach the same price points as more established, bigger brands, right? Then you're going to get a bit, you a higher price. So I think in the instance that you're talking about, yes, there will be moments where it is inherently true that these products cost more. And I think over time, as we see in certain categories with more scale, depending on what that value proposition is, uh it can be exactly the same price. Or the premium is justified because it's a premium product. Let's go now to a higher level, a higher entity. Let's go to the board and let's listen to the COO who says, I only care about cost, risk and speed in my supply chain. I don't have time for this green thing. That's my favorite person to talk to. And thank goodness that person feels that way. Depending on the industry they're in, as a C-level executive, they really would not be doing their fiduciary responsibility to their shareholders if they are ignoring green solutions. And I'll give you a couple of examples. Let's say that you are the COO and you have numerous facilities, right? then If you are not using a solution, I'll just give you one company, a company like Brainbox that uses cloud-based AI to take over the heating, cooling, and ventilation systems, the HVAC systems, in a large building. Could be a warehouse, could be a skyscraper with lots of office floors. Then you're losing, because what a solution like Brainbox does is it takes over, and then it says, OK, we know the temperature outside the building. We know the sun angle outside the building. We know the wind speed outside the building. Inside the building, we know who's going to occupy any given floor with 96 % certainty six hours from now, because this is actually like intelligence. And we know the carbon intensity of the grid. So we know when renewables are on the grid. And we know the price of energy at any given moment. When you put all of those variables together, then what you can start to do is manage very efficiently how you heat and cool building gradually slowly not spiking energy. So BrainBox will save their customers up to 25 % in cost and up to 40 % in carbon emissions and make indoor spaces more comfortable, which is why they're now in over 17,000 buildings around the world and were recently acquired by Train Technologies to continue their expansion. If you're a COO and you're not doing solutions like that, to save money, nevermind cut carbon, you probably shouldn't be in your position. Or certainly if you're the CFO and you're not aware of that solution, you're losing because your competitors are doing it. And so that's the state of the world that we're living in today. There are solutions like that that are driving, it's like this next generation of efficiency. And a lot of that can be driven by AI, doesn't have to be. But if you're not tuning into these solutions to make your business as efficient as possible, then you're not doing your best to cut cost. And if you're not cutting cost, you're obviously not cutting carbon. But that is your opportunity. What do most teams get wrong when they try to make their operations more sustainable? What most teams get wrong when they try to make their operation more sustainable is that they hire a sustainability team to try and do it. Where really what they should do is they should task this, the CFO should task his team and say, let's go out and I want you to go out and figure out what are the best ways that we're gonna cut costs in this company. Let's cut energy, I wanna cut materials, I wanna deliver an excellent product, go out there and show me what my options are. And when you put sustainability in the CFO's office and not the sustainability's office, then you're actually gonna start driving around cost and less about messaging and you're actually gonna make much faster results. Josh, you are big in tech. And the next question is about people, humans and behaviors and habits versus tech. The question is super simple. What's gonna save this planet? Well, this planet can be safe. What's gonna make the life in this planet better? Is it technology or is humans changing the way they behave? I love that question because it's the two of those things combined. is, um well, certain technologies for sure are enablers, right? Solar is an enabler of a clean future. Anything that's like literally... changing the use of fossil fuels to cleaner energy, that is the core of how we're going to solve climate change. That is what's created climate change, is the burning of fossil fuels and that carbon dioxide going into the atmosphere. So we have to not burn fossil fuels anymore. What's very exciting to me is when you look at what's called the learning curve of solar over the last five decades, as we double the manufacturing output of solar globally, the cost comes down consistently by 27%. And so over five decades, that learning curve or that cost curve has held true where the cost of a solar panel, a solar cell has come down by 99%, probably solar cells come down by 99%. If you play that out another decade, if you project out that same curve, and there's no reason to think it's going to change because it hasn't for five decades, you get to energy that is almost trivially cheap. It is the reason today why Pakistan has essentially almost like, has put 50 % more energy on their grid in the last couple of years. It's all solar. Like, the cost curve is unbelievable. So solar is going to be uh a massive uh world changer. uh We're still, I think, in a certain point on the curve, like at the bottom of the hockey stick of growth that is coming. So it's not as visible to us. The other is batteries, where the same learning curve is happening. Batteries are getting extremely cheap. That's one. But all of those solutions are enhanced by artificial intelligence because they become more efficient. So my answer is there are some technologies that are gonna move us into a really an incredible future. There are some technologies like AI, are uh tools and it is really up to humans to decide whether those tools get used for good purposes or. bad purposes because that's what technology is, right? It's a tool. So it really depends on what humans choose to do with that tool. Nuclear, right? Is it weapons or is it energy? It's always so often it's our choice. If we move besides energy, which is obviously probably the biggest, what about things like pollution? Can humans get rid of plastic, for example? Or do we need a chemical component that burns down plastic or something like that? Will we be able to have a nice world by ourselves without the necessary help of technology? Well, that's a good question. I wrestle with that question. Can humans get rid of plastic? We can, but will we? I just, that I don't know. What I've seen over two decades is plenty of startups who have come up with all sorts of alternatives to plastic or petroleum based plastic. Maybe they make it from mushrooms. Maybe they make it from algae. Maybe they make it from a whole different type of feedstocks. What I have not seen, and so I don't have confidence that we necessarily will see, I've never seen any of those companies actually become global powerhouses and that material start to really replace at massive scale fossil fuel based plastic. So I don't know. And that is a big question because you can't really stop fossil fuel production until you have really viable commercial alternatives to everything that fossil fuels produce. Josh, When you hear, uh we don't have budget for this, sustainability expensive, what do you actually hear underneath? What's going underneath those statements? ah What I hear is, I'm an idiot, is what I hear. What I hear is, I am lazy. What I hear is like, I don't really want to do anything different than I do today because I'm secure and comfortable and I don't want to change because it's just flat out. not how the world operates today. Today, in any situation, it really doesn't matter what it is. If you think about the most modern solution, right, to almost, you know, any technology, modernization is almost exactly equivalent to like, or anything for your home, that is like where you're going to modernize your home, you're going to upgrade your systems. everything you're gonna do is uh electrification. Everything you're going to do is going to get plugged in. Same for uh a building, right? Like the idea that we're gonna use fossil fuels uh or that that's somehow like modern, that that somehow is actually a good way to do things, an economic way to do things, that is all going away. That's just all going away. It's not, and I'm not the one who like, the person who said this to me was the guy who has the best job. that one of the best jobs I can imagine. He works at Schneider Electric, a big global infrastructure company, and he runs their think tank. So his job inside Schneider Electric is to think about what will the world look like in 2050, and then what should Schneider Electric, one of the largest global infrastructure companies in world, be building today, and what business should we be in to actually build that future? And that future is like so obvious by every trend that it was going to be a lower carbon future where everything in the question will be how much renewable energy generation on the other side but when you look across supply chains today. The amount of innovation that is underway is really extraordinary. And then you see companies like Amazon that at first I was somewhat skeptical of this, have to say, but Amazon is the driving force behind the climate pledge, this kind of corporate pledge where now hundreds, maybe more than that, but certainly hundreds of companies have signed on to reach a net zero operations by 2040. And it's pretty real because Amazon takes it very seriously and Amazon doesn't just sell, I mean they do sell I think 400 or 500 billion dollars worth of goods every year. They also purchase for their operations hundreds of billions of dollars. And so if Amazon says to Salesforce or Interface Floor, this flooring tile company that makes carbon negative flooring tiles, you have to be sustainable if you want our business. Well then the Fortune 500 and industry starts to move in a sustainable direction if they want Amazon's business. And so this is just where companies are today. They're not talking about it as much because certainly in America we have a different political leadership in place. It's influencing how the mainstream media and the conversation around sustainability and climate, but the operations are changing because these are just smarter ways to do business. Santi, believe you've gone mute. Hello. Josh, um I have developed the four productivity vectors methodology. The four vectors are efficiency, effectiveness, ownership and wellbeing. I wanna pick up in ownership and effectiveness. um What is one green activity you see companies doing that is pure theater and wastes time? my gosh, I love that question. What companies are doing that pure theater waste time? Well, I would argue that a lot of the reporting that companies seemingly feel they have to do, now some of that is government reporting, but my gosh, if there isn't so much like reporting on what we're doing that's sustainable and we have to have this scorecard or this standard that we have to meet, it's like... To me, it's just the whole thing is such a waste of time. It's like there's this entire industry built up around, you know, like reporting about sustainability and it's like, just go do it. ah You know, so I just think there's just so much like in the messaging and the let's, you know, this just. write a report about what we're doing instead of actually doing the work. I feel like a lot of that is theater. I just feel like a lot of that is some sort of accountability to somebody on Wall Street who sort of cares about that. I know this is a very American perspective. In Europe, it's very different because the rules and regulations and laws are changing in a different way. Global companies have to have a different perspective. But that stuff really irks me. It's just like, come on, man. Let's just get on with it. You have subtly hinted into greenwashing and I have a greenwashing question for you. I want you first to what means greenwashing, what the term means. And I want you, I love to hear your perspective on if greenwashing will help us in the long run or is completely useless. Okay, well, greenwashing, right, as a term would be the idea where you are overstating probably the impact. It could be a whole bunch of things, but when a company overstates the impact of its actions, right, oh, we move to... um Recycled plastic cups were really leading the charge on sustainability like right and it's like are you I mean So you switch the cups and you like your employee cafeteria Are you really like a sustainability layer like the claim doesn't really match the behavior or the behavior isn't quantified right like we now use Organic cotton in our clothing like look at us. It's like well, how much is it? 1 % Is it 50 %? that right? Like, so in this sort of area of vague claims meant to try and position a company in a certain way for stakeholders, consumers, whomever else, that would be greenwashing. My view is, and this is like, I have been uh a green communicator for a long time. ah Yeah, as we talked about the lazy environmentalist TV show radio show I've written books guidebooks I honestly don't really care about greenwashing like I think like all the greenwashing police and everybody getting up in arms about You can say this you can't say that, you know, it's just like at the end of day. It's like We don't have time to just try and police all these greenwashing terms and it's like I just think it overstates how much anyone's actually paying attention. Like I think it overstates how much consumers are actually influenced by claims of corporations. And I'll read the same surveys and I'll read the same polls and, consumers, know, 66 % of consumers want to shop their values. Well, I've been in this industry for two decades and that's just, they may want to, but they don't. Otherwise we'd already be transforming our economy. You know, they don't chop their values. They don't really care that much. um And it's just a waste of time to me. It's like look you want to do something you want to talk about talk about it like come on. Let's go One about ownership. Environmentalism seems to be for companies something discretionary, something that they decide on an initiative or project or budget by budget, year by year basis. What do you think would take for a CEO to say green is our choice by default, even on our worst quarter? China it will take China and it's already happening because like take European, you know, European car companies, how long are they going to have any market share if BYD and other cheap electric cars from China are going to flood European markets and they're actually higher quality, better cars at a lower price. Nobody has the luxury of saying, yeah, we're just going to keep selling really expensive gas powered SUVs to about 5 % of the population um while these other companies are actually taking the biggest market share. Same in America, which is why we don't let BYD and these other companies in yet because we know. And so what I think is you could look across industries, you know, pick it energy. yeah, no, we're going to go build natural gas turbines. Cool. Until like somehow like the Chinese solar panels get in around tariffs. It's only like, all right. Well, now that actually makes no sense anymore because this is the cheapest product. So I'm being a little bit tongue in cheek, but I do see like plenty of industries where the costs of clean energy technologies are just falling so fast. And it's not just like you have to be um like directly in that industry. I'm talking about electric vehicles, right? But just take like all the use cases of batteries. There's a company in America today, there's a couple of them, but the leading one is coming called Copper. And what Copper makes is an induction range stove. Cooking with induction is considered now widely by lots of top chefs, like the preferred way to cook, even over a traditional flame with natural gas. That's like a very controversial thing in America. People somehow seem to be up in arms. They want their methane in their house. I don't think they realize it's methane and that's actually poison, but. uh But with all that said, if you want an induction range and they make a really nice one, usually what you have to do in America is you buy the stove and then you have to pay an electrician like twice as much, like $10,000 to come run a 220 volt amp to your kitchen to have enough power for that induction range. So nobody does it. So copper, put a battery, because the cost of gotten so cheap, inside the stove. And so you just plug it into the same outlet in America, like your toaster or your juicer or whatever. And then for most of the when you're not cooking that battery is charging and so then when you go to cook now you have the energy from the wall plus the energy in the battery you have enough energy to cook so what does that mean that means like hey if you're a um a stove maker Right? Like, like if you're making natural gas sto- like powered stoves, like you're in trouble because there's a better product that's figured out how to get to market at a cheaper price point. And that actually, like, so if you're the CEO of a traditional appliance maker and you're not being paying attention to that and saying every single day, we are going to build the electrification clean energy thing, like you're going to lose. Like you eventually will lose. And so I would say many, CEOs in many, many industries, if they're not paying attention to this, they may not be CEO for, you know, for as long as they think they're going to be. Josh, can we make five rapid fire questions? Please. Number one, most overrated sustainability move in business today. Hiring a big sustainability team. Number two, one tool or habit to help teams develop green practices. tool or habit to develop green practices, I would say um listen to the super cool podcast. Number three, your spicy steak about corporate climate pledges. Most of them are meaningless, but I do believe that Amazon and what some corporations are doing actually have real teeth in practice behind them. One everyday behavior where you are lazy on purpose for the planet. My showers, always long because that's always where I do my best thinking. Maybe you should start showering with cold water, Josh. Maybe I should. Cold could be double as my cold water plunge. Well, you cut your energy in half at least. Number five, one small change most knowledge workers could make that helps both productivity and climate. Mmm, that would help productivity and climate work from home. I like that one. Yeah, if I may add one, I'll say stop asking AI absolutely everything. um Josh, let's give some advice to team leaders, people in general. CEOs, COOs that listen to that podcast. What is one specific change you want them to make in their work that is helping the environmental move? Well, I mean, I would say two things. I would say, first of all, companies today, certainly depending on size, but every company should really be thinking about where they're parking their cash, where they're banking, because most mainstream banks are really underwriting fossil fuels. So if you are a sustainability driven company and you're banking with a mainstream institution, Like it's guaranteed that your business is actually underwriting things that you don't really like. And there are banks emerging that are far more sustainable. Just park your money somewhere else where those banks are underwriting solar powered projects, renewable projects, battery projects. And America's coming called Climate Finance Bank. So think about that. Anyone could think about that as a knowledge worker uh or working as a company. The other thing I would say is part of this is a shift in frame. This is what I'm talking about today. If you have the mindset that sustainability is a cost center, then you will continue to look for information that supports your point of view. If you have an open mind and think that sustainability could actually be a cost cutter, uh you know, a performance driver, then you will look for solutions that actually support that, that frame of mind, um, or that frame for your business. And it's just a hundred percent true. So, you know, I can talk about, like I could mention 10 solutions that someone could, could, could look for. They wouldn't be universally applicable across industries. But as I said, in the beginning, so many climate technologies have scaled that are really infrastructure that are B2B that are solutions for how companies operate. Open your mind and you will find. those solutions. Do you think newer generations, newer generations Josh seems to be much more attention to a environment and ESG in general than uh previous generations, boomers and so on. Do you think when they reach although some of them are already there. When they reach decision-making positions, the sea level, the environmental costs will get a boost. Well, I would uh really question the reality behind that statement. I'm not sure that that's completely true that younger generations care more about these issues than older generations. I think we take that as conventional wisdom. And I think you could say that, you you could say that this year, you could say 10 years ago, 20 years ago, 30 years ago, going all the way back to like the silent spring hippies, the 1960s, every young generation cares more. If you look at the, at the hippies, right? They like, once they became investment bankers, they stopped, they, they stopped caring as much right about the values when it was all early days and less concerns, less responsibilities. So I think in general, when you get into positions of more responsibility, you realize that there are more considerations than just your ideological views about climate or any other issue you may care about. So I think that generally you get into positions of power. how much you act on your ideological values goes down. uh The other thing I think is that when I look across the innovation landscape, to me, the CEOs in the realm of climate who are running the most consequential companies are almost across the board over 50 years old. Companies that have like real scale behind them that are actually delivering real value to the market and to their shareholders. They're not young. So they're entrepreneurs who've started staying the game with executive teams that are seasoned and they're totally committed to this. And the reason why they're succeeding is because They either have built up all this, you know, knowledge in like oil and gas, and now they're moving into geothermal, or they were a brand strategist at Unilever forever, and now they're going to like run some like, you know, organic, I don't know, you know, um cleaning company, who knows, but it's like, I just see a psychographic more than a demographic of people who actually care. And to me, it's not generational. Josh, how can get our audience in touch with you, listen to your podcast and avail your services? So our podcast is super cool. You can find it anywhere you listen to podcasts. We have Two newsletters, one's called The Playbook, where we digest or we synthesize how the best climate companies are taking market share and gaining market adoption and actually selling into markets to scale up. And then we have another called Deployed, where each week we're writing about what's gone live in the low carbon economy to move things forward. Real projects at real commercial scale. Could be a net zero uh skyscraper for new apartments. Could be a geothermal deployment. It could be utility solar. I mean, we cover everything. green hospitals, you name it. So it's getsuper.cool is the place to find all that information. Very cool. Josh Dorfman, thank you so much for bringing your knowledge, all the data and your experience to us. I'm taking one thing away. A lot has been done in the past years. Maybe it wasn't so visible, but it seems that we are starting to uh reap the fruits and the benefits and we might be... maybe at a tipping point where being green and environmental, it's actually better than not being it. It's a competitive advantage. Thank you so much for your time, Josh. Thank you, Santi. I enjoyed the conversation.